John Richardson

[Herlock Sholmes]

If a rectal thermometer was used on live patients but there wasn't one to hand, he improvised. It wasn't something he wished to publicise though.

Thanks Dickere, glad you understand what I am suggesting. Just can't see how we can rule it out?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello Herlock

That is exactly what happened, though I don't understand your distinction between "those" intestines that were exposed or not. Philips examined the corpse, which had a gaping wound down the front and part of the intestines had been lifted out. He examined the body, feeling among other things for body heat, and in the course of his examination he felt inside the wound, placing his fingers and hands around and under the intestines and other organs.
Therefore, he was able to testify that there was some remaining heat under the intestines.

Hi Kattrup, none of us were there so I'd be reluctant to say that any of us can know "exactly" what happened. Also, for you to say that Phillips placed his "hands" around and under the intestines and other organs doesn't match the evidence because Phillips didn't mention any other organs. Nor did he say he used two hands, as opposed to one. Nor did he mention putting his hands "around" anything.

You haven't actually responded to the two key elements of what I was saying. Firstly, that the intestines themselves were cold, having been exposed to the air. Do you agree with this? That is absolutely crucial in circumstances where Thiblin was told merely that Phillips put his hand "inside the body". If what happened is how I outlined it, Phillips wasn't feeling the core temperature of the body, or anything like it. Secondly, he didn't place his hand "inside the body" in any meaningful way (and I'm not sure that "inside the wound" is accurate either if the intestines were exposed). He just slipped his hand under the exposed cold intestines. That's all.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The main issue is that there are a group of contrarians dug in on 'conspiracy theory'/Richardson lied. It isn't possible to reason with conspiracy theorists so may as well drop it.

It certainly feels like it a lot of the time Wulf. Especially when attempts are made to demonise Richardson to such an extent that at least 2 people think that he should just be dismissed.

Its also interesting that when I mentioned the fallacy that Richardson and Chandler disagreed with each other in the passage way everyone tiptoed away whistling to themselves followed by silence. Like on the other thread when Joshua pointed out the fact that Phillips never said that he found potatoes in Chapman’s stomach….just ‘food.’ Potatoes were an assumption by everyone (including myself). We got an embarrassed silence. it’s a pattern when the inconvenient is mentioned. Like the pattern that those who try hardest to discredit Richardson just happen to be the ones who try hardest to give Dr Phillips superpowers. Agenda writ large Wulf.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You'd have thought so, but just look at Berner St. All the locations carried a high risk of interruption and discovery. It didn't seem to phase him all that much.

And if BS man was the killer of Stride he didn’t mind killing after being seen. And if Hutchinson saw the killer then he didn’t mind killing after having Hutch bend down and stare in his face. As you’ve said Al, killing outdoors involves risk no matter what. And let’s face it, Cadosch came into the yard when Chapman and her killer we’re already there. So if he heard the ‘no’ as part of a conversation between the killer and Annie and they heard Cadosch it’s reasonable that they assumed that he was going to the outside loo and so kept quiet until he’d gone back inside. He then goes to the loo again whilst the killer was doing the mutilating.

[FISHY1118]

But you have accepted many time on here that Phiillips may have been right or may have been wrong.

So that being said why do you still keep maintaining that he was wrong why not just let it go because we are never going to be able to establish a conclusive TOD, and all we are left with is that Chapman was killed by JTR sometime between 4am-5.45am end of story nothing more to be said. If we could pin a TOD down where would that take us?

Each an everyone will have their own opinion as to their TOD but thats as far as it can go, and when someone voices their opinion as to a TOD you should respect that and not continually stamp your feet stating what you believe and telling them they are wrong.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Exactly

[FISHY1118]

Another complete invention. Desperate.

Or fact as has been shown .

[FISHY1118]

Some might argue that your constant attempts to prop up the witness testimony is also desperate

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Try telling this to those on here who are trying to push an earlier TOD. I’ve said all along that the Doctor gets us nowhere. Posters like you and Fishy now appear to accept this fact but there has still been no admission of error on either of your parts over spending page after page trying to show otherwise. You were wrong so you should just admit it. The witnesses are another matter. They can be assessed. Not fairly by some of course but they can still be assessed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Or fact as has been shown .

This is why you ducked responding properly. Because you don’t understand what was being discussed. So you just pick out a part that you like. Thiblin didn’t back an earlier time of death. Any poster that says this should provide the evidence for this or stand accused of being a liar. He didn’t say this so it cannot be produced.

[Dickere]

Thanks Dickere, glad you understand what I am suggesting. Just can't see how we can rule it out?

Agree. Mine may have sounded humourous, rightly, but there is logic to it too.

[Trevor Marriott]

Try telling this to those on here who are trying to push an earlier TOD. I’ve said all along that the Doctor gets us nowhere. Posters like you and Fishy now appear to accept this fact but there has still been no admission of error on either of your parts over spending page after page trying to show otherwise. You were wrong so you should just admit it. The witnesses are another matter. They can be assessed. Not fairly by some of course but they can still be assessed.

They are entitled to voice their opinions just as much as you are, but the reality for all is that at this time no specific TOD can be conclusively be established. So lets all accept that and stop the pointless arguing

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

They are entitled to voice their opinions just as much as you are, but the reality for all is that at this time no specific TOD can be conclusively be established. So lets all accept that and stop the pointless arguing

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I agree. My only ‘but’ is that some posters do keep trying to show that Phillips minimum estimate should be regarded as correct. As you say on purely medical evidence she could have been killed at an earlier TOD (which you favour for reasons other than Phillips) or a later one (which I favour for reasons other than Phillips)

[Fleetwood Mac]

You'd have thought so, but just look at Berner St. All the locations carried a high risk of interruption and discovery. It didn't seem to phase him all that much.

In terms of the series of murders, I reckon the risk can only be quantified when assessed against his other options. I don't think he was flush with options, and I'd be interested to hear a realistic low-risk option.

In the event Cadosh heard a murder taking place, then to my mind this is by far the greatest risk taken. The evidence we have from the other murders, is that when disturbed at the Liz Stride crime scene he left before mutilating and before being heard. 'Possibly disturbed at the Polly Nichols crime scene and left when someone approached and wasn't heard. The other crime scenes were chosen with more privacy.

Furthermore, assuming the voice heard saying 'no' was Annie's, and I think this is the consensus among those who support the 5.30am TOD, then this is not someone incapacitated. 'Possibly capable of screaming. And, the WM would have known someone was in earshot, a few yards away, with only a 5ft whatever fence in the way, when it was light enough to catch him red-handed and see his face.

I'd say no other crime scene displays this recklessness to anywhere near the same degree and it would be highly unusual for a murder to take place in that circumstance.

[Parisi North Humber]

If Philips' conclusion of Annie's tempreture is based soley on his touch then surely it was his perception of heat or lack of. What I mean that if his hands were warm she would feel much cooler to his touch than if his hands were chilled. With this in mind I can only see that Philips found a tangible difference between her surface tempreture and the tempreture under (however one wishes to define it) her intestines. The difference was palpable to him but her actual tempreture is not recorded as he had no impirical way of measuring it.
Bearing in mind the time of day and the time of year if Philips had been called out of a nice warm bed I can imagine his body tempreture being warmer than the ambient tempreture of where Annie was found and had lain in for some time. I have no suspect or pet theory nor am I stating anything as fact just what seems to make sense to me.

Helen x

[FISHY1118]

This is why you ducked responding properly. Because you don’t understand what was being discussed. So you just pick out a part that you like. Thiblin didn’t back an earlier time of death. Any poster that says this should provide the evidence for this or stand accused of being a liar. He didn’t say this so it cannot be produced.

You didn't read my post properly, thiblin agreed with Phillips evidence and assessment of 2 hour probably more explaining why .

So a modern day doctor supported that evidence ,as was what fisherman showed in his post .

Speaking of picking out the points you like ......... wow kettle ⚫