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  • #31
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    because he probably didnt think it was important at the time.
    Hi Abby,

    That could be the answer, except that Chandler testified that Richardson specifically told him that he had not gone down the stairs. How do you sit on the second step with your feet on the yard flagstones without going down the stairs?

    Cheers. George
    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

    “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
      I agree that if the boot trimming episode is accepted there is no way he would not have seen the body. Question is, why did he make no mention of it to Chandler, specifically telling him that he had not gone down the steps? If you accept what he told Chandler and look at what he added later as polished testimony, then IMO he could have missed the body.
      I believe Richardson was talking about the steps to the cellar door when he said to Chandler that he did not go down them, rather than the back door steps. This is borne out by the Daily News report of Chandler's evidence on the 14th, which says;
      "Witness told him that he did not go to the bottom of the steps leading to the cellar. He went to the top, and looked down."

      The same paper reports that the inspector seemed to believe Richardson's evidence;

      "The Coroner closely questioned the inspector as to the visit of young Mr. Richardson to the backyard in Hanbury-street. Evidently Mr. Baxter had not been quite satisfied with the circumstances attending that visit, but from Inspector Chandler's tone and manner, he had himself apparently no doubt that this young man's evidence was reliable. The jury questioned the police-officer with the view of ascertaining whether it may have been possible that when Richardson went to the yard the body might have been laying there without his perceiving it. The inspector thought that it was very possible if he had only gone to the top of the steps. In that case, as the door opened outwards, it might have concealed the body behind it. Richardson, however, had sworn that he sat on the middle step with his feet on the ground, to cut a piece from his shoe, and it was allowed that in this position he must inevitably have seen the murdered woman"


      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

        I believe Richardson was talking about the steps to the cellar door when he said to Chandler that he did not go down them, rather than the back door steps. This is borne out by the Daily News report of Chandler's evidence on the 14th, which says;
        "Witness told him that he did not go to the bottom of the steps leading to the cellar. He went to the top, and looked down."

        The same paper reports that the inspector seemed to believe Richardson's evidence;

        "The Coroner closely questioned the inspector as to the visit of young Mr. Richardson to the backyard in Hanbury-street. Evidently Mr. Baxter had not been quite satisfied with the circumstances attending that visit, but from Inspector Chandler's tone and manner, he had himself apparently no doubt that this young man's evidence was reliable. The jury questioned the police-officer with the view of ascertaining whether it may have been possible that when Richardson went to the yard the body might have been laying there without his perceiving it. The inspector thought that it was very possible if he had only gone to the top of the steps. In that case, as the door opened outwards, it might have concealed the body behind it. Richardson, however, had sworn that he sat on the middle step with his feet on the ground, to cut a piece from his shoe, and it was allowed that in this position he must inevitably have seen the murdered woman"
        Hi Joshua,

        Thank you for that clarification.

        Cheers, George
        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

        “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

          Hi Joshua,

          Thank you for that clarification.

          Cheers, George
          You're welcome.
          Perhaps Chandler's apparent belief in Richardson was bolstered by something else he said, as reported in the Telegraph, about objects found in the yard;

          "There was also a piece of steel, flat, which has since been identified by Mrs. Richardson as the spring of her son's leggings.

          Where was that found? - It was close to where the body had been."

          It seems likely that this was lost when John removed his legging which would have been necessary in order to remove his boot, just as he said.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

            Hi Abby,

            That could be the answer, except that Chandler testified that Richardson specifically told him that he had not gone down the stairs. How do you sit on the second step with your feet on the yard flagstones without going down the stairs?

            Cheers. George
            what joshua said. maybe just some minor misunderstanding
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

              I believe Richardson was talking about the steps to the cellar door when he said to Chandler that he did not go down them, rather than the back door steps. This is borne out by the Daily News report of Chandler's evidence on the 14th, which says;
              "Witness told him that he did not go to the bottom of the steps leading to the cellar. He went to the top, and looked down."

              The same paper reports that the inspector seemed to believe Richardson's evidence;

              "The Coroner closely questioned the inspector as to the visit of young Mr. Richardson to the backyard in Hanbury-street. Evidently Mr. Baxter had not been quite satisfied with the circumstances attending that visit, but from Inspector Chandler's tone and manner, he had himself apparently no doubt that this young man's evidence was reliable. The jury questioned the police-officer with the view of ascertaining whether it may have been possible that when Richardson went to the yard the body might have been laying there without his perceiving it. The inspector thought that it was very possible if he had only gone to the top of the steps. In that case, as the door opened outwards, it might have concealed the body behind it. Richardson, however, had sworn that he sat on the middle step with his feet on the ground, to cut a piece from his shoe, and it was allowed that in this position he must inevitably have seen the murdered woman"

              Excellent, another particularly fine example of why we need to consult all the press reports of an inquest to better understand the sequence of events.
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                "Witness told him that he did not go to the bottom of the steps leading to the cellar. He went to the top, and looked down."
                If Richardson went to the top of the cellar steps and looked down, that means he was standing in the yard and the backyard door would have swung shut behind him. On turning back towards the shut door the body would have been clearly visible, if it was there.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                  If Richardson went to the top of the cellar steps and looked down, that means he was standing in the yard and the backyard door would have swung shut behind him. On turning back towards the shut door the body would have been clearly visible, if it was there.
                  Hi Scott,

                  It also means that he was not entirely honest in his testimony at the inquest:

                  CORONER: Did you go into the yard at all?-Not at all, sir.

                  Cheers, George
                  “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                  “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Yes, agree George. I honestly don't know what happened now. Chandler is reported by the newspaper to have said that Richardson "went" to the top of the cellar steps -- as in -- he walked down the backdoor steps (?) into the yard and went over to the top of the steps leading to the cellar and checked the cellar door from the top.

                    But he may have been able to see the cellar door through the canopy from the top of the backdoor steps, although this seems somewhat doubtful.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                      I believe Richardson was talking about the steps to the cellar door when he said to Chandler that he did not go down them, rather than the back door steps. This is borne out by the Daily News report of Chandler's evidence on the 14th, which says;
                      "Witness told him that he did not go to the bottom of the steps leading to the cellar. He went to the top, and looked down."

                      The same paper reports that the inspector seemed to believe Richardson's evidence;

                      "The Coroner closely questioned the inspector as to the visit of young Mr. Richardson to the backyard in Hanbury-street. Evidently Mr. Baxter had not been quite satisfied with the circumstances attending that visit, but from Inspector Chandler's tone and manner, he had himself apparently no doubt that this young man's evidence was reliable. The jury questioned the police-officer with the view of ascertaining whether it may have been possible that when Richardson went to the yard the body might have been laying there without his perceiving it. The inspector thought that it was very possible if he had only gone to the top of the steps. In that case, as the door opened outwards, it might have concealed the body behind it. Richardson, however, had sworn that he sat on the middle step with his feet on the ground, to cut a piece from his shoe, and it was allowed that in this position he must inevitably have seen the murdered woman"

                      ''Richardson, however, had sworn that he sat on the middle step with his feet on the ground''

                      There is no ''Middle step'' , and Richardson never mentioned he sat on it in his inquest testimony , thats a press report as far as im aware.
                      'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                        ''Richardson, however, had sworn that he sat on the middle step with his feet on the ground''

                        There is no ''Middle step'' , and Richardson never mentioned he sat on it in his inquest testimony , thats a press report as far as im aware.
                        Hi Fishy,

                        Have look at Jon's photo in post #2 - Top, middle and bottom steps, then the flagging.

                        It is the usual agony with the original sworn statements and inquest transcript lost, thus the conflicting press reports are all we have to go on.

                        Telegraph:
                        [Coroner] Did you go into the yard? - No, the yard door was shut. I opened it and sat on the doorstep, and cut a piece of leather off my boot with an old table-knife.....
                        When I was on the doorstep I saw that the padlock on the cellar door was in its proper place.

                        [Coroner] Did you sit on the top step? - No, on the middle step; my feet were on the flags of the yard.

                        Times:

                        He lifted the latch and went through the passage to the yard door. He did not go into the yard but went and stood on the steps....He stood on the steps and cut a piece of leather from off one of his boots.
                        By the CORONER - He cut the piece of leather off his boot because it hurt him. He took a piece out on the previous day, but that was not sufficient. As a matter of fact that was the only thing he did at Hanbury-street. He did not go into the yard at all. His object principally in going to the house was to see that the cellar was all right, and he looked and found that it was so.
                        The CORONER-You do not seem to have taken much trouble to see that it was all right.
                        Witness, continuing, said he could see the padlock was on the door. He did not sit upon the top step, but rested his feet on the flags of the yard.

                        Cheers, George
                        “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                        “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Thanks George , I guess im a bit confued as to the ''doorstep'' and ''middle step'' , i dont see it as a middle step, in post 2 that photo i count two steps, the small one on the ground, then the large one. Now i know this might seem a bit weird but then the next move up is actually inside the house its not a step as such.

                          I still only count two steps . , So did Richardson sit on the first step ?
                          'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                            There's a few sketches available from the newspapers.



                            Too may steps with this pic thats for sure ,
                            'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
                              Thanks George , I guess im a bit confued as to the ''doorstep'' and ''middle step'' , i dont see it as a middle step, in post 2 that photo i count two steps, the small one on the ground, then the large one. Now i know this might seem a bit weird but then the next move up is actually inside the house its not a step as such.

                              I still only count two steps . , So did Richardson sit on the first step ?
                              Hi Fishy,

                              I think on "the large one".

                              Cheers, George
                              “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                              “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                                Hi Fishy,

                                I think on "the large one".

                                Cheers, George
                                This should clarify matters

                                Click image for larger version

Name:	12.annie chapman murder scene.jpg
Views:	277
Size:	40.4 KB
ID:	789369

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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