John Richardson

[Elamarna]

Dr Phillips didn't attempt to give you an 'accurate TOD'. He stated at least two hours and probably more. There, he was acknowledging the pitfalls but observed enough to know the difference between 'within an hour' Liz and 'at least two hours' Annie.

You are ignoring that Phillips said the temperature may have made the body cool faster than he expected.

You are ignoring that no actual temperature was recorded.

Again you talk of a difference, so I again ask what differences would he see in bodies (that are not comparable in terms of wounds ) that are say 1 hour dead; and 2.5 hours dead?

And again I ask what methods would Phillips have used to established TOD?


Steve

[Fleetwood Mac]

You know what the methods were, Steve, they are in the inquest testimony and the post-mortem reports; they've been discussed on this thread ad nauseam also.

Dr Phillips had 4 very important pieces of information at his disposal which when fitted together really do suggest the likelihood.

Witness testimony on the other hand, is notoriously unreliable due to recalling events that they weren't taking a great deal of notice of.

And when it is suggested that it would have been a huge struggle to source food at 3 or 4 in the morning, the answer is that Annie was taking potatoes from the kitchen at 2 in the morning or whatever. That should tell anyone that Annie sourcing food after 1.45am simply cannot be reasonably explained away.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You are ignoring that Phillips said the temperature may have made the body cool faster than he expected.

You're imagining it, Steve.

I said that Dr Phillips stated: "at least two hours and probably more", which he did say.

[Elamarna]

Some opinions are built upon stronger foundations than others, and the idea that Annie ate after 1.45am has no foundation apart from: "we just don't know" even though it is very, very unlikely given the circumstances.

Would you care to point out the foundation for she did not eat after 1.45.
That appears to be based on, "I dont believe it".

Steve

[Fleetwood Mac]

Would you care to point out the foundation for she did not eat after 1.45.
That appears to be based on, "I dont believe it".

Steve

I've just said this.

Annie had just eaten meaning food wasn't a priority. At 3 or 4 in the morning it would have been a problem to source food: everyone is in bed because there's no custom. In Annie's own words she went out to get money for a bed. She had bed on her mind, not food.

[Elamarna]

You're imagining it, Steve.

I said that Dr Phillips stated: "at least two hours and probably more", which he did say.

Really?

That's funny, the full quote as given on this site in the Daily Telegraph is

"- I should say at least two hours, and probably more; but it is right to say that it was a fairly cold morning, and that the body would be more apt to cool rapidly from its having lost the greater portion of its blood"

Clear he is qualifying his "two hours or probably more". By saying the body would cool more rapidly.

Or are you about to suggest that he didn't mean it.

Of course that also suggests he based his TOD on how cool the body felt to his touch.
That's totally, 100% Subjective.

And yes, they believed they could fix TOD that way.


Steve

[Fleetwood Mac]

Really?

That's funny, the full quote as given on this site in the Daily Telegraph is

"- I should say at least two hours, and probably more; but it is right to say that it was a fairly cold morning, and that the body would be more apt to cool rapidly from its having lost the greater portion of its blood"

'Nothing funny about it, Steve.

I said that Dr Phillips stated: "at least two hours and probably more", which he did and your quote demonstrates that. The fact there is an addition to that statement doesn't mean I ignored it, contrary to your claim.

In the event you believe that Dr Phillips didn't mean two hours or probably more, then why did he say it?

[Elamarna]

I've just said this.

Annie had just eaten meaning food wasn't a priority. At 3 or 4 in the morning it would have been a problem to source food: everyone is in bed because there's no custom. In Annie's own words she went out to get money for a bed. She had bed on her mind, not food.

That it wasn't a priority is simply your opinion.
That food was not available is nothing more than your opinion, that's speculation, and ignores the possibilities already mentioned several times.

That you believe that is fine, but that does not make it fact.

Steve

[Wickerman]

It baffling Steve. When Christer tries it we know that it’s because he realises how much weaker a later ToD makes the case for Cross. But when people try it who as far as I can see have no theory or suspect to prop-up I simply don’t understand the total lack of respect for evidence on display. Doctor using provably unreliable methods versus three witness with no reason to lie. It’s not difficult stuff is it?

And as Jeff has pointed out, Phillips estimation range still allows for a later ToD.

Hi Herlock, Steve, F.M. & others.

For anyone interested in what procedures were used in order to establish a legal Time of Death in 1888 might be interested in a set of volumes, in this case vol. I, which addresses these specific issues.

The title is, Legal Medicine, Charles Meymott Tidy, 1882 vol. I, which describes the use of:
- Body Temperature.
- Rigor Mortis.
- Lividity.
- Putrification.
Other methods are also mentioned to help the physician determine when the victim died.

https://archive.org/details/b21508252/page/n5/mode/2up

If you scroll down the right side of this page you should find a pdf that can be downloaded for free.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Three important pieces of information which when put together tell a story.

Added to those 3 pieces of information we have the improbability of Annie sourcing food at 3 or 4 in the morning, given the lack of options and that she had eaten at 1,45am.

And then of course, Dr Phillips had Liz down as within an hour TOD and Annie entirely different, suggesting he observed enough to differentiate within an hour and not within an hour. Two bodies acting as comparators.

Likewise, Steve, I'm not wholly sold on your 35 years of experience. Stating that is certainly not enough to convince me that the said information is worthless.

Phillips knew that Stride couldn’t have been killed earlier.

[Fleetwood Mac]

That it wasn't a priority is simply your opinion.
That food was not available is nothing more than your opinion, that's speculation, and ignores the possibilities already mentioned several times.

That you believe that is fine, but that does not make it fact.

Steve

My opinion, but built upon strong foundations.

Who were these vendors stood on the street at 3 or 4 in the morning when there's no custom? When just about every possible businessman would have been in bed so that he could get up at half 5 in the morning when people were coming back out on the streets again, meaning custom?

Steve, this whole 'opinion'/'fact' thing that you and a few more like to post demonstrates how weak your argument is.

There's no use in falling back on: "it's just an opinion; it's not fact". I know. It's an opinion built upon strong foundations, however, which in most aspects of this case and on these various thread is what we're discussing. Opinions and the foundations that support them, which place them a few rungs above opinions supported by not much other than 'we just don't know".

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've just said this.

Annie had just eaten meaning food wasn't a priority. At 3 or 4 in the morning it would have been a problem to source food: everyone is in bed because there's no custom. In Annie's own words she went out to get money for a bed. She had bed on her mind, not food.

Everyone was in bed……..obviously false.
Food wasn’t a priority……..it didn’t need to be a priority, taking food when she could get it was important. Unless you really do think that she could just nip into Gregg’s for a pasty?

I went out yesterday to buy a new toaster…..it was my priority….my sole aim…….but I passed a charity shop, went inside and ended up buying a book. Just because we have priorities we don’t avoid doing anything else. You do employ some strange thinking. Or more likely, you’re just clutching at straws to bolster your preconception.

[Herlock Sholmes]

My opinion, but built upon strong foundations.

Who were these vendors stood on the street at 3 or 4 in the morning when there's no custom? When just about every possible businessman would have been in bed so that he could get up at half 5 in the morning when people were coming back out on the streets again, meaning custom?

Steve, this whole 'opinion'/'fact' thing that you and a few more like to post demonstrates how weak your argument is.

There's no use in falling back on: "it's just an opinion; it's not fact". I know. It's an opinion built upon strong foundations, however, which in most aspects of this case and on these various thread is what we're discussing. Opinions and the foundations that support them, which place them a few rungs above opinions supported by not much other than 'we just don't know".

It’s an opinion built on zero.

[Elamarna]

'Nothing funny about it, Steve.

I said that Dr Phillips stated: "at least two hours and probably more", which he did and your quote demonstrates that. The fact there is an addition to that statement doesn't mean I ignored it, contrary to your claim.

In the event you believe that Dr Phillips didn't mean two hours or probably more, then why did he say it?

Pardon, you said I had imagined it!
Adding "which he did say", implying I invented the qualifying lines.

Of course you ignored it, it's part of the same well known quote. Intrinsic to fully understanding the Doctors comment.

He said it two hours or more, for one very simple reason, he knew no better.
Medical science had not advanced enough to allow better estimates.
For starters, no actual temperature was recorded.
No actual temperature was taken, just did it feel, warm, cool or cold.
All of which are highly subjective, not just to the doctor, but to the individual victim.

He and others believed the TODs they gave.
But believeing it does not make it correct.

Steve

[Fleetwood Mac]

He said it two hours or more, for one very simple reason, he knew no better.

This is an odd line of reasoning.

Dr Phillips told you: "at least two hours and probably more". That is a pretty categoric statement in anyone's book.