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  • John Richardson

    One thing thats always been a bit puzzling of Richardsons inquest testimony regarding the Chapman murder.

    [Coroner] Did you go into the yard? - No, the yard door was shut. I opened it and sat on the doorstep, and cut a piece of leather off my boot with an old table-knife, about five inches long. .

    [Coroner] Did he say anything about cutting his boot? -Joseph Chandler, Inspector No.

    [Coroner] Did he say that he was sure the woman was not there at that time? - Yes.
    By the Jury: The back door opens outwards into the yard, and swung on the left hand to the palings where the body was. If Richardson were on the top of the steps he might not have seen the body.Joseph Chandler, He told me he did not go down the steps.

    Could it be possible Richardson missed the body that was there because he only stood on the step and looked into the yard ? Perhaps giving an earlier t.o.d
    'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

  • #2
    As you may imagine, the question is not new.
    Some believe the door could have hidden the body, others feel quite sure it couldn't have.

    Richardson may have sat on the middle step, but his feet were on the flags of the yard, so his left foot would have been right beside the body, and it was light enough for him to see to his right where the lock to the cellar was. So it had to be light enough to see a body beside his foot.





    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • #3
      if chapmans body was there she would have literally been at his feet, seemingly only inches away. it was light enough for him to check tje cellar door and cut a piece of leather off his shoe. he himself was adamant he would of seen her and i agree.
      she wasnt there yet.
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
        As you may imagine, the question is not new.
        Some believe the door could have hidden the body, others feel quite sure it couldn't have.

        Richardson may have sat on the middle step, but his feet were on the flags of the yard, so his left foot would have been right beside the body, and it was light enough for him to see to his right where the lock to the cellar was. So it had to be light enough to see a body beside his foot.




        If however and just for arguement sake, we take what Chandler said that he didnt sit on the step but Richardson instead stood on the top step . What would it look like if Richardson pushed the door open 35/40 degrees then peeked into the yard only looking in that direct to which the door being on that angle would allow ?

        Would he still see Chapmans body ?
        Last edited by FISHY1118; 07-03-2022, 09:58 AM.
        'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
          if chapmans body was there she would have literally been at his feet, seemingly only inches away. it was light enough for him to check tje cellar door and cut a piece of leather off his shoe. he himself was adamant he would of seen her and i agree.
          she wasnt there yet.
          Im not sure but is the cellar door 90 degrees to Richardsons right ? , if his standing in the doorway about to look in the yard?.
          'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

          Comment


          • #6
            There's a few sketches available from the newspapers.



            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
              There's a few sketches available from the newspapers.
              The door had a mechanism (possibly the hinges) that made it close itself, so one argument could be that the door would naturally close against the left side of Richardson's body, in which case he might not have been sitting perfectly perpendicular on the steps as shown in these drawings, but was instead angled to his right, towards the cellar door.

              This might have made it slightly more likely for Richardson to have missed the body, but all in all, considering how light it was outside, and since Chapman's feet and ankles would have been visible from underneath the edge the door, it is difficult to believe this could have been the case.

              And at some point Richardson had to stand up again, and in doing so he would have pushed the door even further open.
              Last edited by rjpalmer; 07-03-2022, 05:22 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                So either the body wasn't there at the time or he lied. But which is it ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  When all else fails, just accuse the witness of lying.....
                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Or accuse the other poster of being a troll
                    My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Has anyone attempted to make a 3d model of the scene, to test possible lines of sight?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                        There's a few sketches available from the newspapers.







                        As these drawings show if indeed Richardson stood on the step and he only opened the door 35degrees, on that angle he only needed to look hard to his right to check the cellar door. And look into the yard without glancing to his left to spot Chapmans body

                        From the height of the steps he would have had to look straight down and slighly to his left to see her body , remembering he only went to check the cellar down, which he might have done many times befor. He knew just a slight opening of the door then put his head around would allow him to see the cellar door lock easily.

                        So i believe its just possible he did miss chapmans body .

                        That is of course we believe Insp Chandler when he said Richardson made no mention of sitting on the step to cut the leather from his boot .

                        Just a foot note , notice the gap in the paleings of the fence and the height ? Albert Cadosch

                        A further consultation of the detectives engaged in the case was held this morning, and an officer again visited the back-yard of No. 29, Hanbury-street, and made a careful inspection of the palings leading from that house to No. 27, where resides the young man Cadosh, who stated at the inquest that he heard sounds proceed from the spot where the body lay at a quarter-past five on the morning of the murder. An examination of the fence shows that immediately over the place in the yard there is an aperture in the palings by which the dead body could have been plainly visible, while anyone moving in the yard might easily have been seen.14 Echo Sept 20th 1888.
                        Last edited by FISHY1118; 07-04-2022, 01:18 PM.
                        'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                          When all else fails, just accuse the witness of lying.....
                          Hi Jon,

                          Generally I'd agree, but some witness testimony is very hard to believe:

                          Joseph Chandler
                          [Coroner] Did you see John Richardson? - I saw him about a quarter to seven o'clock. He told me he had been to the house that morning about a quarter to five. He said he came to the back door and looked down to the cellar, to see if all was right, and then went away to his work.
                          [Coroner] Did he say anything about cutting his boot? - No.
                          [Coroner] Did he say that he was sure the woman was not there at that time? - Yes.
                          By the Jury: The back door opens outwards into the yard, and swung on the left hand to the palings where the body was. If Richardson were on the top of the steps he might not have seen the body. He told me he did not go down the steps.

                          John Richardson
                          [Coroner] Did you go into the yard? - No, the yard door was shut. I opened it and sat on the doorstep, and cut a piece of leather off my boot with an old table-knife, about five inches long.

                          [Coroner] Did you sit on the top step? - No, on the middle step; my feet were on the flags of the yard.

                          After cutting the leather off my boot I tied my boot up, and went out of the house into the market.

                          (recalled)
                          produced the knife - a much-worn dessert knife - with which he had cut his boot. He added that as it was not sharp enough he had borrowed another one at the market.

                          Richardson initially indicates to Chandler that he gave the cellar door a perfunctory glance and departed.
                          At the inquest he introduces the boot cutting story. He stated twice that he actually cut leather from his boot, but no leather shaving were found at the scene and Chandler confirms he made no mention of it to him. He consistently said he did not go into the yard, but the middle step was certainly in the yard. How does one sit on the middle step with one's feet on the flags without going down the steps? When asked to produce the knife he presents a knife that was totally unsuitable for the task and changes the successful shaving of the leather to having been at work afterwards.

                          IMO Richardson introduced the boot story to enlarge his role in the matter or to avoid looking foolish for not having noticed the body, but didn't anticipate the Coroner asking to see the knife. I think Chapman's body was already there, as per Phillip's estimate of TOD, and Richardson missed it.

                          Cheers, George
                          “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”
                          If money can't buy happiness, explain motorcycles, malt whisky and pipe tobacco.
                          Everybody lies - Greg House MD

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                            Hi Jon,

                            Generally I'd agree, but some witness testimony is very hard to believe:

                            Joseph Chandler
                            [Coroner] Did you see John Richardson? - I saw him about a quarter to seven o'clock. He told me he had been to the house that morning about a quarter to five. He said he came to the back door and looked down to the cellar, to see if all was right, and then went away to his work.
                            [Coroner] Did he say anything about cutting his boot? - No.
                            [Coroner] Did he say that he was sure the woman was not there at that time? - Yes.
                            By the Jury: The back door opens outwards into the yard, and swung on the left hand to the palings where the body was. If Richardson were on the top of the steps he might not have seen the body. He told me he did not go down the steps.

                            John Richardson
                            [Coroner] Did you go into the yard? - No, the yard door was shut. I opened it and sat on the doorstep, and cut a piece of leather off my boot with an old table-knife, about five inches long.

                            [Coroner] Did you sit on the top step? - No, on the middle step; my feet were on the flags of the yard.

                            After cutting the leather off my boot I tied my boot up, and went out of the house into the market.

                            (recalled)
                            produced the knife - a much-worn dessert knife - with which he had cut his boot. He added that as it was not sharp enough he had borrowed another one at the market.

                            Richardson initially indicates to Chandler that he gave the cellar door a perfunctory glance and departed.
                            At the inquest he introduces the boot cutting story. He stated twice that he actually cut leather from his boot, but no leather shaving were found at the scene and Chandler confirms he made no mention of it to him. He consistently said he did not go into the yard, but the middle step was certainly in the yard. How does one sit on the middle step with one's feet on the flags without going down the steps? When asked to produce the knife he presents a knife that was totally unsuitable for the task and changes the successful shaving of the leather to having been at work afterwards.

                            IMO Richardson introduced the boot story to enlarge his role in the matter or to avoid looking foolish for not having noticed the body, but didn't anticipate the Coroner asking to see the knife. I think Chapman's body was already there, as per Phillip's estimate of TOD, and Richardson missed it.

                            Cheers, George
                            theres more of a chance that richardson was the ripper than there is he missed seeing chapmans body at his feet.
                            the options are (in liklihood):
                            1. she wasnt there yet. (most likely by a country mile).
                            2. richardson killed her..just possible
                            3. he missed seeing her...highly unlikely to the point of nearly impossible.
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                              Hi Jon,

                              Generally I'd agree, but some witness testimony is very hard to believe:

                              .....He consistently said he did not go into the yard, but the middle step was certainly in the yard. How does one sit on the middle step with one's feet on the flags without going down the steps?....
                              Hi George.

                              If you don't mind me saying, that's splitting hairs.

                              All Richardson meant is he didn't go into the yard, like walk around the yard, he stayed at the steps.
                              We can't make a mountain out of a mole-hill, that's my take anyway, sorry.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment

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