Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[harry]

My opinion,but the person I favour to be the more accurate as to the time,was Brown.I believe he would have been anxious,at that time of morning to make sure that he was not late for closing time,and would have verified the time before leaving home.Allowing a minute or two either way,I doubt his time of 12.45 was far out.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Harry.

My opinion,but the person I favour to be the more accurate as to the time,was Brown.I believe he would have been anxious,at that time of morning to make sure that he was not late for closing time,and would have verified the time before leaving home.Allowing a minute or two either way,I doubt his time of 12.45 was far out.

Interesting. I shall go and review. Thanks.

[Wickerman]

Somewhere, I can't find it currently, I read PC Lamb stated just before 1:00 he was found by the men from TIWC and called to Dutfields Yard. If this is accurate, do you think Fanny and Goldstein would be more likely to be accurate than a PC? Who has more stake to know the time?

More at stake but no better means?

P.C. Lamb's words are reported slightly different depending which version you choose.

In the Daily Telegraph he is reported as saying, "shortly before one o'clock,".

In the Daily News we read:
"At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street,.."

Then in The Times, we have:
"About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell,..."

But that is the whole point isn't it, "how could he tell?".
Lamb does not say he owned a watch, very few constables could afford a watch, so most likely P.C. Lamb referenced the same Tobacconists clock referred to by Diemshutz.

So did P.C. Lamb say 'before one', or 'about one', or only 'as near as he could tell' (ie; guess, due to him not looking at a watch)?

All the stated times are approximations except those provided by the medical men, but as I have offered before in other debates, when the 'times' fail us it is the sequence of events which help determine what occurred.

And, the sequence places Mortimer at her door for a while (10 mins?) before Goldstein passed, and Goldstein made no mention to Swanson of any commotion at the gateway as he passed. The time given by Goldstein is quite independent of the statement by Mortimer.

You may notice an extra detail provided by PC Lamb:
"...but I passed the Commercial-road end of the street some six or seven minutes before I was called. When I was fetched I was going in the direction of Berner-street. Constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. The constable who followed me down is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5 at the end of Grove-street. All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty."

I hi-lite in bold the important piece, and that the change of duty had already taken place and Pc Lamb was headed back towards Berner St.

[Abby Normal]

It is to some degree ironic that the most vilified witness in the Stride case, next to Packer, is Mrs Mortimer, who's words actually confirm the claims of Diemshutz.

Mortimer claims to have stepped outside "just after one o'clock", in response to the commotion, and that the last person she saw before she "came indoors" was Goldstein, and that she came in at "one o'clock".

Goldstein gave a statement at Leman-street and Swanson makes note of the time of his claim, "about 1 a.m.".

Obviously then, as Goldstein knew nothing about any commotion as he passed Dutfields Yard "about 1 a.m.", and Mrs Mortimer responded to the commotion by coming outside "just after one o'clock", then the time window for the arrival of Diemshutz is rather tight, and cannot possibly be shifted forward by 15 minutes.

The question that needs to be asked is, was Stride laying in the entrance to Dutfields Yard while Goldstein walked passed?

- If the answer is "yes", then she was also laying there while Mortimer stood at her door on her 10 minute(?) vigil, and the statement by Schwartz may be accepted, and he must have witnessed the beginning of her murder.

- However, if the answer is "no", then the statement by Schwartz can be dismissed but, we must find a way to have Stride arrive, be assaulted, and Diemschutz discover the body all, in "about four minutes" (Mortimer).

The first one wick!

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Order of operations.

A key piece to this is Stride was bleeding when found. She could not have bled for 15 min. Prob not 10. If IS's story is truthfull and accurate, and Dimshitz arrived when he said, Stride still could not have been murdered that early. My opinion is that the bleeding is the most important aspect. And yes, yes, partially severed carotid artery, blah blah. The bleed out in around 3 min. Call it 5 and it is still too long. So there is something wrong here about Stride being murdered at 12:45. Now if someone suggests the attack IS saw took place at 12:45, but the murder occured later then I'm definetly on board that ship

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Dig

Bleed out with one partially severed carotid artery takes, according to all the accounts I've seen, between a minute and a half and three minutes. In this case the doctor estimated a minute and a half. Eight pints of blood in a minute and a half...the medics call it a slow bleed out, but it's still rapid by yours and my standards. I don't believe Liz was actively still bleeding when Diemschutz arrived...some residual oozing perhaps, or a glistening of blood that gave that effect.

Let's be honest, Diemschutz didn't report even seeing blood when he first saw the body..he says he only saw blood when he returned to the yard from the club...and he only saw the true extent of the wound when he returned from Grove Street with Spooner, and the latter lifted Stride's chin exposing the wound, (incidentally spilling some blood from that wound in doing so)....

Even were we assuming the murderer struck an instant before Diemschutz arrived, and allowing just a couple of minutes to explain himself in the club and return, Liz had bled out before he got back from the clubhouse and certainly well beyond all reasonable doubt before he returned with Spooner...so I think we can ignore anything based upon the fact that she was apparently still bleeding...she wasn't...

The next evidence to look at then is clotting...As early as PC Lamb's arrival some blood was still liquid and some congealed. If his testimony is to be believed Doctor Blackwell's arrival at 1.16 was about ten minutes after his own, (perhaps 1.06 as a coarse approximation)...I suppose the question is would there still be some liquid blood (furthest from the body) twenty minutes after the murder, would there be extensive clotting (closest to the body) about ten minutes after the murder. There was a lot of blood between the body and the back door (at least two quarts or four pints - arterial spray perhaps?)...Much depends of course on the temperature, humidity and the composition of the blood itself, but the accounts I've seen seem to suggest that, albeit a generalisation, visible clotting usually begins between 10 and 15 minutes after bleedout...

Although this still leaves matters somewhat open I favour an earlier (ie pre 1250) rather than later (approx 1.00am) time, because it gives just that bit more time for clotting to become as established as it apparently had...

Hello Harry

With regard to James Brown's timings, if closing time was definitely imminent, then yes he might be a bit more alert to his timings...but do we know the time the chandlers shut? If McCarthy's is anything to go by, a lot of these corner shops were open until 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning. As we don't know either way, then at present I prefer to regard Brown's timing estimate as a simple retrospective reconcilliation based upon estimated timings back from 1.00am...

Hello Jon

You'll not be surprised, I assume, if I concur with Abby?

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

.... Now if someone suggests the attack IS saw took place at 12:45, but the murder occured later then I'm definetly on board that ship

That is what I have been toying with for a while. I'm not comfortable with the assault seen by Schwartz as the initial act which led to her murder, though I do recognise that it appears the simplest solution.

Oh, by the way, black grapes thin your blood

[Wickerman]

Although this still leaves matters somewhat open I favour an earlier (ie pre 1250) rather than later (approx 1.00am) time, because it gives just that bit more time for clotting to become as established as it apparently had...

Hi Dave.
Our scientific estimates probably reflect an ambient temperature somewhat warmer than existed that night in October. The cold cobbles likely made the blood clot sooner - just a thought

Hello Jon

You'll not be surprised, I assume, if I concur with Abby?

All the best

Dave

Not at all surprised Dave, no.
I think most should accept the "yes" argument, I just have reservations about the assault being so early. Unless BS-man stayed with Stride for 5 minutes or so, then sliced her throat. Thats always possible.
I don't buy the slice to her throat being done as early as 12:45-50, more like 12:55-1:00 in my opinion.

I suggested two solutions, a "yes" or "no", but I also have a "maybe" that I didn't offer.

[harry]

Brown is stated as returning home when he saw a person he believed was Stride,who was in the company of a male person.Now whether his time of 12.45,is a calculated time,the result of sighting a timepiece,or a combination of both,it does correspond with that of Schwartz.Pity they were not asked how they could be sure,but maybe they were.From there it is a matter of speculation as to what and when incidents occurred,untill one O''clock,give or take a couple of minutes,when Stride's body was discovered.Mortimer's information can be ignored,because no matter how one twists it,she saw nothing of importance.At the best it can be treated as negative evidence.

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Harry

I agree that Mortimer's evidence, at first appearance, is useful only as negative information, (presumably why she didn't appear at the Inquest), but even so, it's valuable to us in that it suggests that nothing loud or attention-grabbing happened during a ten-minute period between 1245/50 and 1255/1.00.

It narrows the time of attack to the two relatively narrow bands either side

As regards Brown, yes he's interesting, and either he or Schwartz have only to be literally a couple of minutes out in their guesswork....

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Jon

I've nothing much invested either way, (barring that nagging feeling at the back of my mind that Schwartz might just be the Seaside Home witness), but for me everything works better with a 1245 attack.

Two serious attacks on Liz in ten minutes? Possible of course but...and there is also, of course, the issue of why she cried out three times but not loudly...so I think I'll stick where I am at present.

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hello Dave.

The reservation I have with BS-man killing Liz at 12:45 is that Mortimer is just about to appear at her door for the next 10 minutes or so.
We can't say she has already been stood at her door because she never saw Eygle or Lave who were out and about between 12:30-40. So she must have opened her door only minutes after the commotion described by Schwartz.

Mortimer heard slow footsteps, possibly BS-man staggering along passed her door? There's a scuffle, and a whimpering, Stride falls down, but is she mortally wounded so early? (about 12:45?). All we read is that he pushed her down.

If BS-man continued the assault after Schwartz departed, then how is it that Mortimer, about to open her door, heard nothing or saw no-one leave?
She heard no voices, no physical altercation, and more importantly saw no-one leave the yard.
That 10 minutes(?) appears to have been devoid of any activity with the exception of Goldstein passing along just before she stepped inside about 1:00 am.

The other difficulty I have is the assumption we all have had that Stride was alone in Dutfields Yard. She had been seen with the 'parcel man' (by Smith) just 10 minutes before Schwartz appeared - where did he go?

Stride had been seen several times that night, but never alone. Schwartz did not see anyone else in the yard, true, only BS-man & the woman, but his attention was taken up by the scuffle, another man could have been stood deeper in the shadows of the yard out of sight.

Whoever this BS-man was, something spontaneous caused him to attack Stride, it appears he knew her. Either casually or personally, we cannot be sure.
I wonder if he saw that she was with someone else and that is what caused the scuffle?

I have trouble accepting her standing alone in the shadows, unless she was with someone, which would explain to me why she was there.

I'm suspicious that the 'someone' was the man seen by PC Smith, and that this was her killer - only suspicious mind you

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

I believe the assault and throwing down in the passageway, witnessed by Schwartz, was in fact the knife attack; I think what he thought was a grip on the shoulders may've been BS holding her neck back, and he passed the knife across her throat on the way down...and I believe it was the fact that there were possibly two inadvertent witnesses (pipe man from the Beer Shop and Schwartz passing by at even closer range) that caused him to call out a curse, break off and do a runner instead of proceeding with his mutilation.

I suspect Liz may have accompanied her killer to the venue ... if he was Jack, it was a scenario that had worked before for him before, and after all he didn't know nosy Mrs Mortimer was about to appear did he? (How fortunate for him that neither Bucks Row nor Hanbury Street had a nosy Mrs Mortimer).

And yes it may well be that, whether Jack or not, Liz knew the killer, at least by sight, and possibly closer than that...she may have been seen talking to him earlier in the evening.

All the best

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Hello Dave.

The reservation I have with BS-man killing Liz at 12:45 is that Mortimer is just about to appear at her door for the next 10 minutes or so.
We can't say she has already been stood at her door because she never saw Eygle or Lave who were out and about between 12:30-40. So she must have opened her door only minutes after the commotion described by Schwartz.

Mortimer heard slow footsteps, possibly BS-man staggering along passed her door? There's a scuffle, and a whimpering, Stride falls down, but is she mortally wounded so early? (about 12:45?). All we read is that he pushed her down.

If BS-man continued the assault after Schwartz departed, then how is it that Mortimer, about to open her door, heard nothing or saw no-one leave?
She heard no voices, no physical altercation, and more importantly saw no-one leave the yard.
That 10 minutes(?) appears to have been devoid of any activity with the exception of Goldstein passing along just before she stepped inside about 1:00 am.

The other difficulty I have is the assumption we all have had that Stride was alone in Dutfields Yard. She had been seen with the 'parcel man' (by Smith) just 10 minutes before Schwartz appeared - where did he go?

Stride had been seen several times that night, but never alone. Schwartz did not see anyone else in the yard, true, only BS-man & the woman, but his attention was taken up by the scuffle, another man could have been stood deeper in the shadows of the yard out of sight.

Whoever this BS-man was, something spontaneous caused him to attack Stride, it appears he knew her. Either casually or personally, we cannot be sure.
I wonder if he saw that she was with someone else and that is what caused the scuffle?

I have trouble accepting her standing alone in the shadows, unless she was with someone, which would explain to me why she was there.

I'm suspicious that the 'someone' was the man seen by PC Smith, and that this was her killer - only suspicious mind you

It's really quite simple Wicky
Liz and bs man had been meandering about and were in front of dutfields yard about 12:40. When he realized she was not going to go into an alley and or engage in an act of prostitutution he left her only to lose his temper, turn around and suddenly attack her cutting her throat in the street. He bolts immediately after he see Scwartz and Liz hearing noises from the club staggers toward perceived help but then expires in the yard. The whole thing only takes a few minutes. Mortimer simply missed it, Scwartz is telling the truth and Liz was killed by the ripper, who lost his cool with a reluctant victim. And this thread is done.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Jon

I believe the assault and throwing down in the passageway, witnessed by Schwartz, was in fact the knife attack; I think what he thought was a grip on the shoulders may've been BS holding her neck back, and he passed the knife across her throat on the way down...and I believe it was the fact that there were possibly two inadvertent witnesses (pipe man from the Beer Shop and Schwartz passing by at even closer range) that caused him to call out a curse, break off and do a runner instead of proceeding with his mutilation.

I suspect Liz may have accompanied her killer to the venue ... if he was Jack, it was a scenario that had worked before for him before, and after all he didn't know nosy Mrs Mortimer was about to appear did he? (How fortunate for him that neither Bucks Row nor Hanbury Street had a nosy Mrs Mortimer).

And yes it may well be that, whether Jack or not, Liz knew the killer, at least by sight, and possibly closer than that...she may have been seen talking to him earlier in the evening.

All the best

Dave

Wow . Read my mind. Amazing. See my above post.