Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Bridewell]

Is it really plausible that an Immigrant Jew was outside the club at 12:45am after a large meeting of local Immigrant Jews and yet had no affiliation with the club or any members?

Yes it is; perfectly plausible. 40% of the local population was Jewish. If there was a man outside the Club at that hour who was not it any way associated with it or its members, there is a 40% chance that he was Jewish.

[Bridewell]

She's the kind of witness for whom "being there" was not enough.
She had to be there all along.
A bit like Mrs Long

A bit like Mrs Long who didn't claim to be there all along?

who could tell the age and the origin of a man she did not see.

A man she did see, but only from the rear. She formed an impression as to the man's age which, to her, appeared to be over 40, and she described him as foreign-looking. I think Mrs Long is one of the more credible witnesses, because she admitted to uncertainty on some points. This, to me, lends weight to the points about which she claimed to have been sure - the time and the identity of the woman. She may have been mistaken, but there is nothing inherently ridiculous in what she claimed to have seen. If you saw (for example) Alan Sugar from behind, would you be able to tell that he was over 40 and Jewish? I would have thought so.

[Cogidubnus]

Thanks Mike...you've expressed more clearly than I ever could, the difficulties inherent in reconciling the evidence we have surrounding that night...yet I feel we're somehow coming from opposite directions.

I started out being very sceptical of Schwartz, and although I'm trying my best to keep an open mind, find myself veering towards belief in his account. I suspect, (unless I've misunderstood), you're hardening in your disbelief of his account.

I can see where your doubts arise, and can't knock your logic, but nonetheless...

All the best

Baffled of Bognor

[Michael W Richards]

I suppose the simplest way to state what Ive been suggesting here is to say that when assessing witness testimony its very relevant to know whether the witness would have any compelling reason to alter any of the story details. Whether the witness would be liable for or suspected of something depending on how the story they provide evolves, and what it entails.

There are witnesses in this case that fall under that category, and there are some that do not.

The people who would have no stake in any outcome of the murder investigation, because they have nothing to do with the club but are most relevant to the case due to the timing of their witness accounts in relation to the timing of the fatal attack, are;

PC Smith
Fanny Mortimer
James Brown
Edward Spooner

People who stood to potentially lose either their employment, their residence, their social club and/or their reputation and/or freedom, depending on how this murder was perceived by the police....

Wess
Lave
Eagle
Diemshitz, Mr and Mrs

Is it really an accident that these various accounts, by group, do not match?
Is it really plausible that an Immigrant Jew was outside the club at 12:45am after a large meeting of local Immigrant Jews and yet had no affiliation with the club or any members?

All Ive been saying is that there is a burden of proof that is greater on the club affiliates due to the potential liability, and their stories do not satisfy that burden. There are no witnesses to any of their alleged activities....and outside witnesses that state no activities took place at the time they were claimed to have by the club affiliates.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Digital,

There has been research trying to pin down how long it would have taken for Stride to bleed out. Witnesses say blood was still flowing which if the times are correct would be after 1:00. It may be a stretch that Stride was bleeding for 15 minutes or longer. It would be tough to argue against the on-the-scene doctors.

Cheers
DRoy

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Question...

So is it more likely Stride was murdered before or after the last time Fanny went outside? Could she have bled for 15 minutes? Possibly putting Schwartz incident after she went inside?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Blackwell, Blackwell, Blackwell

I think it is a losing fight to try and fit or remove witness accounts. Start with Blackwell and work backwards. I see a real possibility of Dimshitz arriving before 1:00. Blackwell's time. Maybe not much but a few minutes could make a big difference.

[drstrange169]

Every witness on the night has question marks in their story and as researchers we should be questioning them, but what is coming across, and perhaps it not meant, is that you're ignoring the questions marks in the stories you want to be true. You think Heshburg might have a clock in his house, fair assumption, but you won't credit Mortimer with the same assumption. You look for faults in stories that conflict with your theory but avoid anomalies in those whose tales you like.

Lets just look at the evidence we actually have, and when we do, two witnesses come out as the least credible, Heshburg and Kosebrodsky.

Heshburg bad mouths the club in the press, so we have to assume he doesn't like them, which isn't odd as many didn't. His evidence is at direct odds with the most credible witnesses on the night. He claims to have come out after hearing the police whistles at 12:45, but Lamb, is an independent witness and a trained one to boot, he says he walking towards Grove Street at 12:45, blissfully unaware of what the night would hold for him. That one witness is enough to discredit Heshburg, but he isn't the only one. Brown and the couple on the corner were within yards of the club when Heshburg claims to have heard whistles, crowds and confusion yet Brown was apparently oblivious to all the commotion.

No, Heshburg was wrong in his timing, pure and simple.

Kosebrodsky, spoke English poorly, so, as he wasn't at the inquest, we don't know if he actually said 20 to 1:00 or the reporter simply misunderstood him.
What we DO know is that timing was wrong. Brown once again proves him wrong. Acoording to Kosebrodsky, he was running down the road when Brown was walking down the same street. He also says he went alone, but Spooner, another truly independant witness, explictly states TWO jews came running down the road. Spooner also says he was outside the Beehive at 1:00 when it happened.

If the murder did happen earlier Heshburg certainly didn't know about it, unless of course he did it, but lets not go there;-)
Kosebrodsky's story is just too provably wrong to be taken seriously and that is probably due to bad translations by the press.

[DRoy]

Does anyone know for sure that Fanny heard a cart and horse that was being driven by Louis Diemshitz at the time? Does anyone know for sure whether that cart and horse passed her home from right to left or left to right? Would Fanny have known which direction the sound came from?

Michael,

No there is no definitive proof it was Louis she heard but it's a fair assumption it was. It ties into his story and hers. She didn't hear two sets of horse and buggies.

Lots of questions...despite the continuing complaints from Caz and the like that this murder evidence is clear like a mountain stream.

Her murder is anything but clear. I'm glad to see new ideas as opposed to just acceptance. One way or another it at least sparks debate. There are lots of questions and they can't easily be answered no matter how much some may think otherwise.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Does anyone know for sure that Fanny heard a cart and horse that was being driven by Louis Diemshitz at the time? Does anyone know for sure whether that cart and horse passed her home from right to left or left to right? Would Fanny have known which direction the sound came from?

Why do the statements taken the night of the murder have such conflicting times in them? Why is it that there are members from inside the club, one who had just arrived back at the club and had marked that time as 12:30am, who state that based on their estimates from the half hour that they were summoned to a body that was presided over by Louis Diemshitz 15 to 20 minutes earlier than Louis stated he arrived? Why does an outside witness corroborate, even roughly, that tale? How can Issac K states within 1 hour of the murder that he was called by Louis to come down to the passageway and help him "about 10 minutes after I had arrived back at the club, at half past twelve".? Why does he say Louis sent him alone shortly thereafter when Louis seems to say that he accompanies Isaac after 1am to go for help.

Why is it that of Eagle, Diemshitz and Israel Schwartz Fanny Mortimer sees nothing, when she stated that she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 1am, the last 10 minutes continuously? Why doesn't she see anyone leave via the gates...she is at her door during the period when Blackwell states the cut was made...where is that killer at 12:50?

Lots of questions...despite the continuing complaints from Caz and the like that this murder evidence is clear like a mountain stream.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Caz,

I agree with you. That was my point too. The problem being is when to believe Mortimer and when not to. I think that's what Michael is questioning and I am too.

I believe Mortimer heard him arrive which means she's credible in hearing Louis arrive and also credible because she saw Goldstein. Two things that make her a credible witness in my books that match 'the story'. The part that she doesn't confirm and neither does anyone else is Schwartz. So why do we believe her when it's convenient to do so and yet discredit her when it comes to Schwartz?

Based on the last three Liz threads it seems most believe her to be mistaken/lying/etc and this is where 'the conspiracy' comes in. If she's wrong/lying/etc then it could have happened the way we've been told for 100 years. Or...she isn't lying/incorrect/etc and therefore the Schwartz assault didn't happen and it's a result of the personnel of the club.

In my opinion Michael has given a completely and reasonable explanation as to how it could have happened. I personally believe Mortimer is as truthful as she could be but I also believe she was influenced by club members (see my last posts under Witnesses-Mrs Fanny Mortimer, Time Wrong thread).

I would personally assume that 1:00 is as correct as possible. There were not just club members to say the time. You have police and their beats, Mortimer, doctor's, etc. people saw her throat still bleeding so I would assume her throat being slit sooner rather than later. Again, that said, I believe Michael has a legit argument as to her time of attack as it is a reasonable argument but with trouble.

Cheers
DRoy

[drstrange169]

This is the problem with conspiracy theories, you have to draw more and more people in to the plot to explain discrepancies.

Lets suppose Kosebrodsky was correct.

Deimshits turns into Berner street at 12:30, as he passes he says to the young couple on the corner, "Go my on son, give 'er one". Not looking where he is going he nearly knocks over Letchford. Letchfords sister screams,
"Where'd yer get yer license from a corn flake packet?".
Jo Lave standing in the street having a ciggie yells at Letchfords, "Shut your mouth you limey bastards!"
Deimshits swings into the yard, his pony pulls up, so he jumps down and finds Liz's body. "Bugger me" he says to himself, "if this gets out I'll lose money, No, wait I've a cunning plan, if I say it's one o'clock, I won't lose any money at all". Cunning plan in mind he rushes into the club, see's Kose' sitting watching the seconds tick by on the club clock and takes him outside to see the body.
The two decide to fetch the police and run out of the yard screaming, "Murder! Police!" pushing passed BS man and knocking over Israel as they go. Israel picks himself up only to be knocked over again by Heshburg who has come out because of the noise, closely followed by Mrs.Mortimer. Meanwhile Kose' and Deimi has reached Fairclough, passing Goldstein on the way, and still screaming "Murder! Police!" As they pass the couple standing on the corner, the woman yells at them, "Not tonight, maybe some other night." The two men then knock over Brown who is walking down the middle of the street. Dazed, Brown staggers on home only to be knocked down again by, Kose, Deimi and Spooner returning.
Back at the club the police arrive, Lamb sees the body and sends for Blackwell. PC 426H doesn't know where Blackwell lives, and despite the doctors house being only 90 seconds leisurely stroll away he takes 20 minutes to find it.

Yeah that'll work;-)

[Abby Normal]

I don't get it. If Louis Diemshitz lied about his arrival time, which was actually a quarter of an hour earlier, why was Fanny Mortimer reported to have heard what she believed was his pony and cart passing her house about four minutes after she went inside and just before all hell broke loose?

Was she lying too? Or mistaken about who she heard and when? Or what exactly? Bit of a happy coincidence for Louis that what she heard just happened to fit so neatly with his efforts to pervert the course of justice, even to the point of her remarking on his 1am arrival to her old man. Or did Louis bribe the couple to support his story?

It's all getting a bit surreal, isn't it?

Love,

Caz
X

A bit silly I would say

[caz]

I don't get it. If Louis Diemshitz lied about his arrival time, which was actually a quarter of an hour earlier, why was Fanny Mortimer reported to have heard what she believed was his pony and cart passing her house about four minutes after she went inside and just before all hell broke loose?

Was she lying too? Or mistaken about who she heard and when? Or what exactly? Bit of a happy coincidence for Louis that what she heard just happened to fit so neatly with his efforts to pervert the course of justice, even to the point of her remarking on his 1am arrival to her old man. Or did Louis bribe the couple to support his story?

It's all getting a bit surreal, isn't it?

Love,

Caz
X

[drstrange169]

Hello Michael,

I came to this interest (hobby?) via Knight's, Final Solution, so I love conspiracy theories, but Knight's book also taught me not to confuse them with the facts. I have no problem with the idea that murder was committed earlier or that certain club members were involved. I do have a problem with the idea that there is evidence to prove it, there isn't, as yet, it's just interpretation and speculation. As I've been pointing out every argument "for" has an equally valid "against". There are holes in everybody's accounts of that night. You've chosen to select part of Kose's interviews as gospel and ignored the factually in correct parts, I can't follow that reasoning.
If Deimshits was covering up, why did he choose someone as unreliable as Kose' to be his witness? Surely he would have sort out fellow alleged conspirator Eagle or far better still, Krantz, even an innocent party that would back up his story. No it just doesn't make sense, for this and all the other reasons I've been posting.

...And the dislike that you suggest Heschberg had for the club is somewhat compromised by the fact that he is there singing with other members at 1am, no?

If that is true, absolutely, I've never heard of that before. Can you elaborate, what have I missed?