Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[DVV]

Mission impossible

What for? To determine or narrow down the range of time Stride's throat could've been cut. I am not attempting to absolve "BSM" of possibly killing Stride. Trying to determine as close as possible the time she was cut. And you know "what for" the reason for doing such is, don't you, know what for?

I know that in 2013 no expert can make a more precise estimation.
That's an impossible task, Dig.
It's now up to each of us to believe Schwartz or not, to choose between "disturbed by Diemshutz" and "afraid that Lipski would summon a policeman".
Personally, I vote for the latter.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

I'm looking myself towards a 12.45 approx killing...like you, I see as many, if not more witnesses compatible with that time than there are to a later time...particularly if what Schwartz saw was the murder or beginning of it...I certainly think there's nothing in the medical evidence to particularly preclude it.

I suspect that's where we'll differ, because I believe you see Schwartz as a handy plant (must admit I was initially cynical about him myself, but for various he's grown on me), whilst I'm now veering towards his being the Met's mystery witness...

I think the Jews in the Club were, on the whole, too panic stricken to come up with any fiendish plot...I don't even think Diemschitz necessarily got his timing wrong, (though I suppose it's possible - there are suggestions vide for example Abraham Hoshberg) - but I'm certainly prepared to believe no interruption took place...hence no mutilation despite a time gap of 10 to 15 minutes...or for that matter that an interruption did take pace but was earlier....I've nothing really invested either way...

I think a large part of the time Fanny Mortimer was looking out, Liz Stride was dead and laying in the shadows...when Goldstein whizzed past I think Liz Stride was laying dead in the shadows...and I don't think anything Wess or Eagles say actually precludes this either...

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

There is also the issue of clots in the bleed-out-time mix, how does that affect the flow rate? There was a statement suggesting a very large clot of blood found in that gutter.

Cheers folks

ps Dave, sorry if it felt like I was holding you accountable for the Ripper assumption, its just that your cut time is reasonable.. and a Ripper with a dying woman on the ground and perhaps 15 minutes to do some ripping not ripping doesnt. Its the nasty interruption theory that Im addressing really.

Most reasonable people would conclude that if the killer of Polly and Annie killed again we would see at least some mutilations, particularly if the evidence shows us there was additional time. No-one stated that they entered the gates and the passageway between 12:45 and 1am....so, it would appear there was time. The lack of interest shown the body after the cut is pretty suggestive we do not have the same man here.

Oddly, if Diemshitz did arrive earlier than he said he did, as Ive suggested, there would be fodder for an interruption theory and hence room for Jack to be the culprit, but even the Ripper advocates fight me on that....despite the fact it would enhance their own argument.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

My take on it is that whilst logically the scarf might have restricted the spray, and soaked up some of the blood, Blackwell is careful to say that none of the clothing is stained...he does say the lower edge of the scarf is frayed, but significantly doesn't mention it being stained (Nor does Bagster-Phillips later)...and having said that bleedout was "comparatively" slow, he later goes on to mention a minute and a half...presumably he's one of the medics who favours thirty seconds for a fast bleedout!

The blood appeared to have run down the road, presumably with considerable vigour, as it had gone quite a way down a gulley into a drain...

If I've understood Blackwell's evidence properly, the lower border of the scarf (a black and white checked silk kerchief) defined the top of the incision...it had been pulled up tightly (the knot on the left side was tight and the incision was 2 1/2 inches below the angle of the jaw). The left carotid was nearly severed and the windpipe cut in two...so yes while both arteries weren't opened one certainly was...the odds against there still being arterial bleedout when Spooner arrived have, therefore, to be nil...

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

If you fudge it, and just nick the artery, then yes, bleed out takes longer...but the blood doesn't just gush out, it squirts in a fine but concentrated spray and typically travels quite long distances, until bleed out occurs...

Though the doctors do say there was no evidence of spray, and Blackwell does say the artery was not completely severed. So it should have sprayed, but she also wore a scarf which, because it was frayed by the knife, must have been almost over the wound, and as a result may have limited the spray?

The wound did not spray due to the scarf, and only bled out slowly after the initial release of pressure?

[Cogidubnus]

And this fellow is supposedly the Ripper? In 15 minutes he could have emptied her. And lets not forget that whomever killed Stride did not leave via the gates after 12:50.....boy, people like the timing to be like it was staged. Enter Morris, enter Eagle, exit Liz,....all leaving the stage empty at precisely the right time for the next performer.

Hi Michael

How ironic...who said he's the Ripper? I'd have thought you'd be the last person to jump to that sort of conclusion!

Conversely, as regards the timings, I'd be the last person to suggest it all ran like clockwork...there are, in fact, enough witness timing discrepancies to drive a bus, never mind Diemschutz's Cart through...

But as I emphasiised, I was primarily looking at the Medical evidence...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Spooner stated the blood was flowing when he arrived and that PC Lamb arrived about 5 min after him.

You see, I have problems with this...According to most of the pathology references I've checked on, If you sever someone's carotid artery and do it properly, the rate of bleeding is pretty rapid - it gushes, and likely the majority of it occurs in the first minute to two minutes...I even found one account which said thirty seconds...

If you fudge it, and just nick the artery, then yes, bleed out takes longer...but the blood doesn't just gush out, it squirts in a fine but concentrated spray and typically travels quite long distances, until bleed out occurs...

With arterial bleeding, blood doesn't just flow, or ooze, or trickle, during life...only at the very end, at or after death...blood in the wound itself might appear to ooze when still, or trickle if the body were touched or any pressure was applied...there might be some slight flow, if for example, the head were raised or otherwise disturbed...

Spooner simply can't have arrived at the scene early enough to witness arterial bleeding...it simply isn't physically possible...Diemschutz has found the body (notice he isn't soaked in arterial blood either), gone indoors, told the gathering what he's seen, and various jews have sdubsequently rushed off to seek help. Spooner, down outside the Beehive encountered two of them who explained to him (after having run as far as Grove Street before turning back), and made his way back to the club with them...It's been so long that bleeding must by then have ceased, but Spooner reports that as he lifted up the chin, blood was still flowing from the wound...I'd guess he's seeing blood that he's himself disturbed by lifting the chin and opening the wound.

The fact that the arterial bleed out was well over is verified by PC Lamb's testimony - some of the blood at the scene was liquid, and some congealed (suggesting quite a long bleedout and incidentally confirming Dr Blackwell's testimony) but he also suggests that he wouldn't like to say the victim was still bleeding and if there was any it was slight...

I've paraphrased the evidence, but it's all in the Times 3rd October account of the re-opened Inquest, and it's quoted in the JtR Sourcebook between Pages 160 and 164.

As DVV surmises, what I'm trying to say is that I can't find anything in the medical evidence to preclude BS Man being the killer, whether he's in the act when Schwartz sees him, or whether he completes the job shortly afterwards...

What I do see, incidentally, in the same accounts are some interesting timing discrepancies between the witnesses, but these, as I said earlier, may be tackled separately.

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Perfect post, Dave.

Schwartz has most probably witnessed the first action of the murder.

He bolted, and BSM dispatched Liz (and got away).

If it happened at 12:45, as Schwartz has estimated, Liz was dead for at least 10 minutes when Diemshutz arrived.

Cheers

And this fellow is supposedly the Ripper? In 15 minutes he could have emptied her. And lets not forget that whomever killed Stride did not leave via the gates after 12:50.....boy, people like the timing to be like it was staged. Enter Morris, enter Eagle, exit Liz,....all leaving the stage empty at precisely the right time for the next performer.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo

What for? To determine or narrow down the range of time Stride's throat could've been cut. I am not attempting to absolve "BSM" of possibly killing Stride. Trying to determine as close as possible the time she was cut. And you know "what for" the reason for doing such is, don't you, know what for?

[DVV]

An expert ?
What for ?
Bleeding or not, she was already dead, and died quickly.
No estimated TOD can prove BSM innocent, that's what Dave and I meant.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

The bleeding

Perfect post, Dave.

Schwartz has most probably witnessed the first action of the murder.

He bolted, and BSM dispatched Liz (and got away).

If it happened at 12:45, as Schwartz has estimated, Liz was dead for at least 10 minutes when Diemshutz arrived.

Cheers

An expert's opinion would be very helpful. I am not certain but even with a partially severed carotid artery I don't think someone with that type of injury will bleed for 10-15 mins. An expert is needed to give a timeframe. Partially severed tends to make some think it is not a big deal apparently. Severed or partially makes you dead and bled quickly. Not an expert, but that's how I understand it. Second doctor who arrived said the death may have been quite slow, about a minute and a half.

[DVV]

Doctor Blackwell gave in his evidence (per The Times at least) his arrival time as 1.10am - he said he consulted his watch on arrival - however, he also apparently said he was summoned at 1.10am.

Edward Johnston, who was Blackwell's assistant arrived at the murder scene first by three or four minutes. He claimed to have been summmoned by a policeman about five or ten minutes past one, and says that "as soon as Dr Blackell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1.16"

It is likely therefore that the arrival time for Dr Blackwell at 1.10 was a mistranscription by the reporter from The Times... and in fact in the Telegraph of 3rd October, it does report that Dr Blackwell says 1.16.

Proceeding on that basis, Dr Blackstone's subsequent evidence is to the effect that he estimated the victim's time of death as between twenty minutes and half an hour before his arrival - and although accurate times are hard to pin down, taken purely at face value, this would suggest a murder between 12.46 and 12.56.

We've heard, on all sorts of threads, that blood was running down in the gutter to the drain etc...but Blackwell records that "There was a quantity of clotted blood just under the body".

The good doctor's evidence does suggest that owing to the botched throatcutting Liz Stride bled out comparatively slowly...this is in fact stated...could it be, therefore, that at 1.16 some of the blood was still viscous, and some clotted? This would indeed suggest a prolonged bleed out...and this being the case, what is there in the MEDICAL evidence to suggest Schwartz didn't witness the murder?

Note - I'm ignoring the witness evidence for now (more anon perhaps) - what in the MEDICAL evidence precludes the earlier time?

All the best

Dave

Perfect post, Dave.

Schwartz has most probably witnessed the first action of the murder.

He bolted, and BSM dispatched Liz (and got away).

If it happened at 12:45, as Schwartz has estimated, Liz was dead for at least 10 minutes when Diemshutz arrived.

Cheers

[drstrange169]

Can anyone point me to clinically tested medical evidence that supports the idea that a doctor can precisely pinpoint a death to a time within 20 to 30 thirty minutes.

"It is futile mentioning any time in units of less than an hour, even when the death was quite recent.
A medical witness who attempts to determine the time of death from temperature estimation in minutes or fractions of hours is exposing himself to a severe challenge to his expertise which may well amount to near ridicule, thus denegrating the rest of his evidence".
Department of Forensic Medicine, University of Dundee

If current wisdom states the above, how much less knowledge did a Victorian doctor have? Blackwell's time of death should not be regarded with any more authority than Mrs M's estimate of time of day.

Phillip's "within the hour" is the ONLY credible medical evidence we have, with regards to t.o.d.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Spooner

Spooner stated the blood was flowing when he arrived and that PC Lamb arrived about 5 min after him. It had apparently stopped by PC Lamb's arrival. Would've been nice if they would've paid attention to when she stopped bleeding. Amongst many other things.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Dave, Dig,

Youre asking Dave, If I understand you correctly, is there some evidence in the wound received that would preclude a cut time earlier than 12:46-56, as per Blackwells guesstimate.

Well, Dr Bagster Phillips arrived the scene at around 1:20 to assist Dr Blackwell, and he said regarding her time of death...Coroner: "How long had the woman been dead when you arrived at the scene of the murder, do you think?" - Phillips: "Within an hour she had been alive."

Apparently Dr Phillips allowed for the possibility of a slower bleedout rate, likely due to the partial severance of the carotid.

As you look closer at this issue of time discrepancies its interesting to see that there is some substance to a theory that the cut, and the discovery, were earlier than stated by some.

Cheers fellows