Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[drstrange169]

I've just caught up with this thread whilst I don't have definitive opinion either way about the truth of timings, I noticed that there are some loose interpretations of the infomation we do have.

Most of the witness's put Diemshitz coming back at 1:00a.m., some give conflicting times, and only two give a 12:45 time.

The two are Hesberg and Kosebrodsky. Hesberg is careful to qualify is estimate as a guess and Kosebrodsky could hardly speak English and so was consequently open to misinterpretation. Both these need to be regarded as dubious sources.

P.C. Lamb initially says he was called "shortly before 1:00, but goes on to say Blackwell arrived 10 minutes after him, which confirms Diemshitz's time.

Spooner is quoted as standing with his girlfriend from 12:30 -1:00 again supporting Diemshitz's timing. Ditto, Lave who is in the yard for 10 up to 30 minutes. Both these witness can legitimately be used by people arguing either the early or later timings.

The Arbeter Fraint (Krantz?) gives Diemshitz's arrival as 1:00, as does Eagle and Diemshitz himself. Blackwell claims to have been woken at 1:10, Johnston a little vaguer at just past 1:00 both reflect Diemshitz's declared arrival time. Mortimer and Goldstein also support Diemshitz.

More specifically about horses passing Mortimer's window, Diemshitz stabled his horse in Georges yard, Cable Street, but stored his goods at Berner Street. *IF* he did take his horse home before the police arrived (which the press reports say he didn't) he would NOT have passed Mortimer's window as it is in the opposite direction.

Elizabeth Strides murder may well have taken place earlier, but the is no credible evidence from the witnesses statements of events to prove the theory.

[Michael W Richards]

I've just caught up with this thread whilst I don't have definitive opinion either way about the truth of timings, I noticed that there are some loose interpretations of the infomation we do have.

Most of the witness's put Diemshitz coming back at 1:00a.m., some give conflicting times, and only two give a 12:45 time.

The two are Hesberg and Kosebrodsky. Hesberg is careful to qualify is estimate as a guess and Kosebrodsky could hardly speak English and so was consequently open to misinterpretation. Both these need to be regarded as dubious sources.

P.C. Lamb initially says he was called "shortly before 1:00, but goes on to say Blackwell arrived 10 minutes after him, which confirms Diemshitz's time.

Spooner is quoted as standing with his girlfriend from 12:30 -1:00 again supporting Diemshitz's timing. Ditto, Lave who is in the yard for 10 up to 30 minutes. Both these witness can legitimately be used by people arguing either the early or later timings.

The Arbeter Fraint (Krantz?) gives Diemshitz's arrival as 1:00, as does Eagle and Diemshitz himself. Blackwell claims to have been woken at 1:10, Johnston a little vaguer at just past 1:00 both reflect Diemshitz's declared arrival time. Mortimer and Goldstein also support Diemshitz.

More specifically about horses passing Mortimer's window, Diemshitz stabled his horse in Georges yard, Cable Street, but stored his goods at Berner Street. *IF* he did take his horse home before the police arrived (which the press reports say he didn't) he would NOT have passed Mortimer's window as it is in the opposite direction.

Elizabeth Strides murder may well have taken place earlier, but the is no credible evidence from the witnesses statements of events to prove the theory.

Dr Strange,

There are NO witnesses to Louis arrival...and no witnesses to Eagles. And no witnesses to Israels alledged altercation. Both witnesses from the club that stated an earlier time came straight outside from the club, and it stands to reason there would have been clocks or people with timepieces available inside. Eagle, and Louis, are associated with the club by paycheque...and neither had watches or current time clocks to look at. Point is that neither could be corroborated by anyone as to their arrival times.

Pc Lamb may have been confusing Johnson with Blackwell.

Spooner did not say he stood there between 12:30 and 1am, he said that after leaving the pub at closing on Commercial Street he and his lady friend walked casually to the spot outside the Beehive and were chatting for about 10 minutes. If you do the math that equates roughly with Heschberg and Issac.

Neither the Arbeter Fraint, Nor Blackwell, nor Johnson could ever verify what time Louis arrived home. No-one could...no-one saw him arrive....so all we have is the witness timings here. All the medical men could do is estimate how long she had been dead, and the paper, run by Wess, of course would favor the story of Louis because he was the club steward. Lets not be naive.

Those are the main points in your post that needed correcting.

Cheers

[ukranianphil]

Edward spooner did say he was standing outside the bee hive pub at the corner of christian street and fairclough street between half past 12 and 1am.
[jack the ripper source book page 163. stride inquest]


the woman who he was standing talking to, was it his wife, or "young woman" ?
hope someone can clear it up.

[DRoy]

Michael,

Good points. I'd like to also add something regarding Mortimer to your comments that could support your scenario but could perhaps hurt her reliability as an independent witness...

In regards to some of her comments in the press, she comments on things that appear to have been told to her by Louis a/o others from the club. Examples:

• I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in the pony cart.

• It was almost incredible to me that they could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. (Did she see this or did someone tell her?)

• and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets (her observation or was she told?)

• Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife (She knew his name. She nosy or him polite?)

• I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm. (obviously from received from Louis which only means they discussed details)

It makes me wonder how much of her story was fit to fit within Louis' account? This interview apparently took place in the afternoon after the murder so there was time for outside influence (Louis).

Maybe she had no idea what time it was until Louis said he got home about 1:00 so Mortimer then backtracked and guessed at the the 30 minutes prior to her being found therefore arriving at about 12:30 as to when she first went outside? She saw Liz for sure but did she see grapes and the sweets really or was this too from Louis and Kozebrodsky?

Cheers
DRoy

[drstrange169]

There are NO witnesses to Louis arrival...and no witnesses to Eagles.

Depends on your definition of "arrival", approximately 30 people witnessed
Eagle and Diemshits's entry into the club and one witness heard Diemshits
cart arrive.
As I said, the alternative is Heshburg who admits he was guessing (so we know he either, didn't own or at least look at a clock) and Kosebrodsky who was unable to string English sentences together.

And no witnesses to Israels alledged altercation.

Aint that the truth!

Both witnesses from the club that stated an earlier time came straight outside from the club, and it stands to reason there would have been clocks or people with timepieces available inside.

But it doesn't stand to reason they stopped to look at the clocks as they rushed out of the club to see the body.
In Kosebrodsky's case, the newspaper report you're referring to, has Kosebrodsky saying "about twenty to one", which means he DIDN'T see a clock, he was merely taking a guess at the time. These tiny details are the important ones.
The fact that various club members gave various times indicates, that if there was an attempt to conspire, it was a dismal failure, alternatively there was no clock in the club, or perhaps the merry choir were simply not clock watching. We know from Kosebrodsky that he specifically was guessing the time.


Eagle, and Louis, are associated with the club by paycheque...and neither had watches or current time clocks to look at.

Incorrect, Diemshits did have a clock to look at, Harris's clock.

Point is that neither could be corroborated by anyone as to their arrival times.

By your own theory, if there was a clock/s in the club, about 30 people could have corroborated their arrival times. If these clocks work for your theory they work equally easily well for Eagle and Diemshits to note the time.
Far more importantly, even if everyone had access to a timepiece, there was no synchronization between the various people. One man's 12:45 on the clock could easlily be another woman's 1:00.
Diemshits, of course didn't need a watch, he took his time from the Harris clock and it's not unreasonable to guess that Schwartz and Goldstien may have too.

Pc Lamb may have been confusing Johnson with Blackwell.

And he may not have.


Spooner did not say he stood there between 12:30 and 1am, he said that after leaving the pub at closing on Commercial Street he and his lady friend walked casually to the spot outside the Beehive and were chatting for about 10 minutes. If you do the math that equates roughly with Heschberg and Issac.

Spooner never mentioned Commercial Street, I'm assuming you mean
Commercial Road, confusing isn't it?
He said he walked around with his girl after the beer house in Settles Street closed until the arrival of the running men and he DID put the time as 12:30 to 1:00.

Neither the Arbeter Fraint, Nor Blackwell, nor Johnson could ever verify what time Louis arrived home. No-one could...no-one saw him arrive

If your clocks existed, Aberbeter Fraint (Krantz) could, as could 30 or so singers.

....so all we have is the witness timings here.

Which is exactly my point.A bunch of people with varying notions of time and NO actual evidence to support a theory one way or another.

All the medical men could do is estimate how long she had been dead, and the paper, run by Wess, of course would favor the story of Louis because he was the club steward. Lets not be naive.

Wess didn't run the paper, he was the club secretary. Krantz presumably favoured himself as, unlike us, he was there.

Those are the main points in your post that needed correcting.

All corrections gratefully received, but I haven't read an error in my post as yet.

Heshburg and Kosebrodsky admitted they didn't know the time.

Spooner and Lamb are not reliable.

Mortimer endorses Diemshits and Golsteins story.

Diemshits pony didn't pass Mortimers house to get to Cable Street from the club.

[Michael W Richards]

[I][B]

All corrections gratefully received, but I haven't read an error in my post as yet.

1. Heshburg and Kosebrodsky admitted they didn't know the time.

3. Spooner and Lamb are not reliable.

3. Mortimer endorses Diemshits and Golsteins story.

4. Diemshits pony didn't pass Mortimers house to get to Cable Street from the club.

Hi Dusty,

Without doing a long drawn out rebuttal, on the above;

1. But they did estimate their time, and they did come from a location that would have had clocks,..and both corroberate each other, and both times were at least 15-20 minutes before Diemshitz says he even arrived.
2. Completely subjective opinion, not a fact. What is a fact is that these 2 witnesses would have no stake in the issue of the club having anything to do with the murder....Diemshitz and Eagle do.
3. Mortimers story confirms Goldsteins story.... which was provided after Fannys statement was made public in the papers....so, Leon could have made his statement with the knowledge that she saw someone pass the gates. She never identified Goldstein as the man she saw that passed by, nor did she see a cart and horse driven by Louis Diemshitz arrive at 1am...even though she was at her door.
4. Passing directly past the house is not the only way Fanny could hear the sounds being made.

No other witness saw anything in front of the gates from 12:35 on, and that includes the return of Eagle at 12:40, Lave looking into the street from the gates at 12:40, a scuffle with Liz at around 12:45, or an arrival of a horse and cart at 1am,... those witnesses have only their own words as proof of anything occurring at the time they said it did.

As a general rule I hesitate to accept statements verbatim from sources that stand to lose money, their occupation and their social club if their accounts suggest club culpability in any form. I do welcome statements from sources that have no stake in the outcome of any action that might result from their remarks.

Best regards

[drstrange169]

Hello Michael,

1. But they did estimate their time, and they did come from a location that would have had clocks,

As did every other witness, with the exception of Deimshits, who actually saw a clock and Spooner who had no idea.

Question: If Deimshits invented the story about the Harris clock, how could he know whether or not somebody might be near Harris's to expose his lie? The far safer option was not to be specific as to where he got the time from, just like everybodyelse.

..and both corroberate each other,

Actually no, Heshburg says he came because he heard the police whistle, this is at odds with Kosebrodsky's account who says he went looking for a policeman at the time same time Heshburg claims to have arrived at the club.
It's not the only thing at odds with Isaac's poor English translation. He claimed Deimshits sent him alone to look for a policeman, but Spooner makes it clear two men ran down Fairclough to Grove. Once more, the issue you're not factoring in, is he could not speak English well and consequently what he says not should be taken as correct, as both Heshburg and Spooner prove.


...What is a fact is that these 2 witnesses would have no stake in the issue of the club having anything to do with the murder....Diemshitz and Eagle do.

Again, no.
Why is Kosebrodsky not linked to the club? He was a member and being a socialist club, just as involved as any other member.
Heshburg makes it quite clear in his interviews that he dislikes the club.

3. Mortimer ... never identified Goldstein as the man she saw that passed by,...

Possibly true, possibly not, we don't know if Mortimer was asked to identify Goldstein at any stage.

... nor did she see a cart and horse driven by Louis Diemshitz arrive at 1am...even though she was at her door.

And yet one did and it coincides with Deimshits's alibi.

4. Passing directly past the house is not the only way Fanny could hear the sounds being made.

She didn't say she heard a cart in the distance leaving, she said it passed her house, the two are very different.

No other witness saw anything in front of the gates from 12:35 on, and that includes the return of Eagle at 12:40, Lave looking into the street from the gates at 12:40, a scuffle with Liz at around 12:45, or an arrival of a horse and cart at 1am,... those witnesses have only their own words as proof of anything occurring at the time they said it did.

Correct.

As a general rule I hesitate to accept statements verbatim from sources that stand to lose money, their occupation and their social club if their accounts suggest club culpability in any form. I do welcome statements from sources that have no stake in the outcome of any action that might result from their remarks.

Again you're presupposing Kosebrodsky had nothing to do with the club, despite the fact that he was a paid up member. I don't share your confidence, neither do I accept the truthfulness of his claims as reported in the newspapers, however, Spooner, IS someone who genuinely appears to have no connection to the club and he disputes Kose's claims. You are also not factoring in Heshburgs dislike of the club.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Dusty.

It would help you understand my position better if you remember that I do know the affiliations of all the main characters, including Issac's..essentially Louis's 17 year old apprentice if you will...and that what I suggest about fabricating times would only apply to those most involved with the clubs operations...not just a mere membership.

Those most involved in this scenario are Wess, Krantz, Eagle and Diemshitz. And the stories that Eagle and Louis give are contradicted by the stories given by mere members and 2 outside sources...Mortimer and Spooner. 2 people who would lose nothing if the club members/operators were found to be culpable in this murder.

And the dislike that you suggest Heschberg had for the club is somewhat compromised by the fact that he is there singing with other members at 1am, no?

Cheers Dusty

[drstrange169]

Hello Michael,

I came to this interest (hobby?) via Knight's, Final Solution, so I love conspiracy theories, but Knight's book also taught me not to confuse them with the facts. I have no problem with the idea that murder was committed earlier or that certain club members were involved. I do have a problem with the idea that there is evidence to prove it, there isn't, as yet, it's just interpretation and speculation. As I've been pointing out every argument "for" has an equally valid "against". There are holes in everybody's accounts of that night. You've chosen to select part of Kose's interviews as gospel and ignored the factually in correct parts, I can't follow that reasoning.
If Deimshits was covering up, why did he choose someone as unreliable as Kose' to be his witness? Surely he would have sort out fellow alleged conspirator Eagle or far better still, Krantz, even an innocent party that would back up his story. No it just doesn't make sense, for this and all the other reasons I've been posting.

...And the dislike that you suggest Heschberg had for the club is somewhat compromised by the fact that he is there singing with other members at 1am, no?

If that is true, absolutely, I've never heard of that before. Can you elaborate, what have I missed?

[caz]

I don't get it. If Louis Diemshitz lied about his arrival time, which was actually a quarter of an hour earlier, why was Fanny Mortimer reported to have heard what she believed was his pony and cart passing her house about four minutes after she went inside and just before all hell broke loose?

Was she lying too? Or mistaken about who she heard and when? Or what exactly? Bit of a happy coincidence for Louis that what she heard just happened to fit so neatly with his efforts to pervert the course of justice, even to the point of her remarking on his 1am arrival to her old man. Or did Louis bribe the couple to support his story?

It's all getting a bit surreal, isn't it?

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

I don't get it. If Louis Diemshitz lied about his arrival time, which was actually a quarter of an hour earlier, why was Fanny Mortimer reported to have heard what she believed was his pony and cart passing her house about four minutes after she went inside and just before all hell broke loose?

Was she lying too? Or mistaken about who she heard and when? Or what exactly? Bit of a happy coincidence for Louis that what she heard just happened to fit so neatly with his efforts to pervert the course of justice, even to the point of her remarking on his 1am arrival to her old man. Or did Louis bribe the couple to support his story?

It's all getting a bit surreal, isn't it?

Love,

Caz
X

A bit silly I would say

[drstrange169]

This is the problem with conspiracy theories, you have to draw more and more people in to the plot to explain discrepancies.

Lets suppose Kosebrodsky was correct.

Deimshits turns into Berner street at 12:30, as he passes he says to the young couple on the corner, "Go my on son, give 'er one". Not looking where he is going he nearly knocks over Letchford. Letchfords sister screams,
"Where'd yer get yer license from a corn flake packet?".
Jo Lave standing in the street having a ciggie yells at Letchfords, "Shut your mouth you limey bastards!"
Deimshits swings into the yard, his pony pulls up, so he jumps down and finds Liz's body. "Bugger me" he says to himself, "if this gets out I'll lose money, No, wait I've a cunning plan, if I say it's one o'clock, I won't lose any money at all". Cunning plan in mind he rushes into the club, see's Kose' sitting watching the seconds tick by on the club clock and takes him outside to see the body.
The two decide to fetch the police and run out of the yard screaming, "Murder! Police!" pushing passed BS man and knocking over Israel as they go. Israel picks himself up only to be knocked over again by Heshburg who has come out because of the noise, closely followed by Mrs.Mortimer. Meanwhile Kose' and Deimi has reached Fairclough, passing Goldstein on the way, and still screaming "Murder! Police!" As they pass the couple standing on the corner, the woman yells at them, "Not tonight, maybe some other night." The two men then knock over Brown who is walking down the middle of the street. Dazed, Brown staggers on home only to be knocked down again by, Kose, Deimi and Spooner returning.
Back at the club the police arrive, Lamb sees the body and sends for Blackwell. PC 426H doesn't know where Blackwell lives, and despite the doctors house being only 90 seconds leisurely stroll away he takes 20 minutes to find it.

Yeah that'll work;-)

[DRoy]

Caz,

I agree with you. That was my point too. The problem being is when to believe Mortimer and when not to. I think that's what Michael is questioning and I am too.

I believe Mortimer heard him arrive which means she's credible in hearing Louis arrive and also credible because she saw Goldstein. Two things that make her a credible witness in my books that match 'the story'. The part that she doesn't confirm and neither does anyone else is Schwartz. So why do we believe her when it's convenient to do so and yet discredit her when it comes to Schwartz?

Based on the last three Liz threads it seems most believe her to be mistaken/lying/etc and this is where 'the conspiracy' comes in. If she's wrong/lying/etc then it could have happened the way we've been told for 100 years. Or...she isn't lying/incorrect/etc and therefore the Schwartz assault didn't happen and it's a result of the personnel of the club.

In my opinion Michael has given a completely and reasonable explanation as to how it could have happened. I personally believe Mortimer is as truthful as she could be but I also believe she was influenced by club members (see my last posts under Witnesses-Mrs Fanny Mortimer, Time Wrong thread).

I would personally assume that 1:00 is as correct as possible. There were not just club members to say the time. You have police and their beats, Mortimer, doctor's, etc. people saw her throat still bleeding so I would assume her throat being slit sooner rather than later. Again, that said, I believe Michael has a legit argument as to her time of attack as it is a reasonable argument but with trouble.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Does anyone know for sure that Fanny heard a cart and horse that was being driven by Louis Diemshitz at the time? Does anyone know for sure whether that cart and horse passed her home from right to left or left to right? Would Fanny have known which direction the sound came from?

Why do the statements taken the night of the murder have such conflicting times in them? Why is it that there are members from inside the club, one who had just arrived back at the club and had marked that time as 12:30am, who state that based on their estimates from the half hour that they were summoned to a body that was presided over by Louis Diemshitz 15 to 20 minutes earlier than Louis stated he arrived? Why does an outside witness corroborate, even roughly, that tale? How can Issac K states within 1 hour of the murder that he was called by Louis to come down to the passageway and help him "about 10 minutes after I had arrived back at the club, at half past twelve".? Why does he say Louis sent him alone shortly thereafter when Louis seems to say that he accompanies Isaac after 1am to go for help.

Why is it that of Eagle, Diemshitz and Israel Schwartz Fanny Mortimer sees nothing, when she stated that she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 1am, the last 10 minutes continuously? Why doesn't she see anyone leave via the gates...she is at her door during the period when Blackwell states the cut was made...where is that killer at 12:50?

Lots of questions...despite the continuing complaints from Caz and the like that this murder evidence is clear like a mountain stream.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Does anyone know for sure that Fanny heard a cart and horse that was being driven by Louis Diemshitz at the time? Does anyone know for sure whether that cart and horse passed her home from right to left or left to right? Would Fanny have known which direction the sound came from?

Michael,

No there is no definitive proof it was Louis she heard but it's a fair assumption it was. It ties into his story and hers. She didn't hear two sets of horse and buggies.

Lots of questions...despite the continuing complaints from Caz and the like that this murder evidence is clear like a mountain stream.

Her murder is anything but clear. I'm glad to see new ideas as opposed to just acceptance. One way or another it at least sparks debate. There are lots of questions and they can't easily be answered no matter how much some may think otherwise.

Cheers
DRoy