Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Roy

If Horse and Cart activity at that hour wasn't unusual, why on earth would she comment on it to her hubby? It'd surely be just part of the everyday traffic, just as a passing car is to me?

All the best

Dave

[Observer]

Hi Dave

Which is exactly what I asked Roy sometime back.

If Mortimer heard Deimschutz lead the pony away to Grorge Yard after finding the body, why then did she not hear him appoach the yard also? She heard the pony and cart once not twice. Deimschutz returned to the yard with his "cheap jewellery" in order to offload it into his house. I doubt he would have stored it in a stable some distance from his house.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Observer

Quite...and that's what makes Michael's post interesting too...

All the best

Dave

[DRoy]

Dave & Observer,

Louis had returned to the club to drop off his load. That is when he found Stride. That is what Mortimer heard. Where he parked it, whether he eventually went to George Yard or not, who knows. He wasn't leaving the club. Mortimer heard him arrive, not leaving.

She would have commented to her husband that she heard Louis arrive simply because she heard it. We know Louis did this job so it wouldn't be the first time he made the trip. Since she was able to identify it as Louis then she must be used to him arriving at that time.

Cheers
DRoy

[Cogidubnus]

clip clop

Yes Roy, but if this was an everyday occurence why on earth would she have noticed, let alone comment on it to her husband? Clearly it was something out of the ordinary...something odd...yes?

All the best

Dave

[Observer]

He wasn't leaving the club. Mortimer heard him arrive, not leaving

I'd agree Roy. At 1:00 a.m.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Hi Observer

Quite...and that's what makes Michael's post interesting too...

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave

All of Michael's posts are interesting, most definately

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

I could be wrong but I recall reading he sold his trinkets on the weekends. Perhaps someone can confirm.

Why she acknowledged it or why she told hubby about it is speculation. It would be difficult to prove either way but she said it. She didn't lie about Goldstein and since he passed shortly before I don't see why she would lie about hearing Louis arrive. It didn't make her any more important so no reason to lie.

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

What colour was the horse?

My point is,.....did Fanny hear a cart and horse arriving...or being led away to offload the merchandise in its stable on George Yard? Which is probably where Louis should have led his horse before going to Berner Street....so, why did he stop in at the Club when he still had to offload his cart elsewhere?

Best regards

Michael.
Do you think it likely that the police would allow the horse & cart to be turned around until their investigation was complete? Diemshitz would naturally take the horse & cart further into the yard where he was headed to begin with, though I don't recall any comment in the press about this.
Obviously there was insufficient room to turn the whole contraption around where he stopped.

Did he need to offload his cart elsewhere, or was that why he came by the Club in the first place?

[DRoy]

Jon,

I don't recall if he was going to drop the entire cart there or just his left over stock but I believe it was just his merchandise.

I'd assume that he would have originally left his pony and cart right where he found Stride. But would he leave it there? Was that the safest place so his merchandise wouldn't get stolen? What about when he apparently left with Kozebrodsky? He doesn't say he moved the cart anywhere. Did he go with Kozebrodsky or did he stand guard over the cart and body? There were a lot of police and doctors and onlookers shortly after so where was the cart presumably moved?

Does the cart pose that much of a problem if we know he was arriving and not leaving?

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

DRoy.

You are likely looking for a detail that, although may have been mentioned in passing, no-one thought it significant enough to make a note of.
Whether Diemshitz moved his own cart or another member did it later, or even at the request of constable Lamb when he arrived is unknown.

It was probably taken further into the yard, until Diemshitz had the opportunity to resume what he was doing, that is, after the investigation was concluded, about 5:00am?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

I think what I was trying to get at is that Fanny heard a cart and horse and Fanny heard boots she thought were the sound of a policeman. Fanny didnt see a cart and horse arriving....nor did she see a policeman pass by....something I doubt quite highly....no policeman came forward stating that he had made a pass through Berner Street between 12:35 and 1am.

So we have to be careful about what we accept as gospel....thats why I raised the issue of where the cart and horse were after Louis went inside and from that point on.

I believe its at least possible Israel lived in one of the cottages until that morning. It would explain why he would be coming towards that spot...it would explain why he was there at all,...likely attending the meeting held by his now ex-landlord.

If Israels altercation took place within the passageway, not out in the street, then we would have no reason to doubt any witness who could have viewed the street outside the gates during that last half hour.

It would however mean that his story was altered, by himself or the translator, and that the offsite attack and gentile assailant were probably created for greatest effect. Anything less leaves us with the distinct possibility that her killer was inside the passageway when he met her, implying that he was a club member or attendee...implying that the Anarchist club on Berner Street also housed murderers. If the murder is thought to be a Ripper murder by association with the Mitre Square event, ...just think what a predicament the club, and all area Jews would have had then. Jack, an Immigrant Jew Socialist Anarchist Murderer.....riots, for sure.

Its remarkable how Israels story deflects all suspicion onto an offsite gentile....the club could not have hoped for a better story.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

I thought I remembered this, it took a while to find it.

The pony was kept at George Yard, not the cart I assume, that would be unhitched and left in Dutfields Yard?

Diemshitz.
"It was one o'clock. I had a barrow, something like a costermonger's, with me. I was sitting in it, and a pony was drawing it. It is a two-wheeled barrow. The pony is kept at George-yard, Cable-street. I do not keep it in the yard of the club. I was driving home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard."
Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct. 1888.

[Michael W Richards]

I thought I remembered this, it took a while to find it.

The pony was kept at George Yard, not the cart I assume, that would be unhitched and left in Dutfields Yard?

Diemshitz.
"It was one o'clock. I had a barrow, something like a costermonger's, with me. I was sitting in it, and a pony was drawing it. It is a two-wheeled barrow. The pony is kept at George-yard, Cable-street. I do not keep it in the yard of the club. I was driving home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard."
Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct. 1888.

Thats a good observation Jon, it is probable that he would leave the cart in the yard based on the above. Or that he would offload the goods in the yard then stable both cart and horse in George Yard, but simply mentioned it as storing the pony.

We do know that he would have had to offload whether he discovered a body or not, and we do know that he would have to do something with the cart and horse from that moment on.

I still dont recall reading one statement that explains where that cart and horse were when all the hullabaloo started, and in a passageway that isnt much wider than 10 feet.....post to post the gates were around 9 feet something I believe....something would have to be done immediately.

So...if he drives the cart and horse into the yard past Liz,..why doesnt anyone mention it? If he leaves it back in the street in front of the gates...same question. If he orders someone to offload it for him...then why dont we hear that, and from that man?

Once Diemshitz finds Liz, his priority shifted..it was no longer about his goods in the cart or the pony....it was about the dead woman. But his responsibility to the storage of his goods and eventually his pony wouldnt just go away.

My question has been.....were the cart and the horse there when Spooner saw 2 men heading towards the club yelling "help,..another murder". When Fanny hears the cafuffle and comes over. When PC's Lamb and Collins arrive. When Johnson arrives.

There is though a line in the witness section of this site on PC Lamb, which says that after Lamb set an officer up at the gate and he did the club search and the member examinations....its states that he met Louis Diemshitz "who had gone back to his usual business".

Is that a reference to Louis offloading his cart? And if so....by whose word did this statement appear...a pressmans, the author of the witness page or Lamb himself? I do not see Lamb saying that at all in his Inquest appearance.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

I still dont recall reading one statement that explains where that cart and horse were when all the hullabaloo started, and in a passageway that isnt much wider than 10 feet.....post to post the gates were around 9 feet something I believe....something would have to be done immediately.

Hi Michael.

This extract is close..
When Diemshitz dashed into the club, he was asked:

What did you do with the pony in the meantime?-I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door.
Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct.

The cart apparently was not all that wide:

By a Juror.-Was there room for you to have passed the body with your cart?-Oh, yes. Mine is not a very wide cart; it only took up the centre of the passage. If my pony had not shied, perhaps I would not have noticed it at all. When I got down my cart passed the body. The barrow was past the body when I got down to see what it was.
Morning Advertiser, 2 Oct.

(Cart=Barrow)