Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[DVV]

Michael, do you think a man chosen to cover a murderer would have come with a ludicrous reason, and not a single English word ?
With a story possibly involving two men, when the Whitechapel murderer was generally believed to be a lone killer ?

Cheers

[DRoy]

Roy,

since I believe in the "10 minutes watch" referred to by the EN first edition (and btw accepted by Paul Begg), and since Goldstein hurried with his nightmarish black bag shortly before 1 o'clock, I have no problem either to put Mrs Mortimer outside just after BSM had murdered Liz Stride (thanks to who-you-know who pm both of us).

Dave,

Yes I responded to 'you-know-who' already. With all do respect to him, you and Mr. Begg, I have a tough time believing the journalists little summary that isn't quoted over those versions of her story that are quoted. I believe SPE is of the same opinion.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Observer,

Makes sense doesn't it since nobody else saw or heard it.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi D

So Mortimer just misses seeing PC Smith, and Stride and Parcel Man go into Dutfields Yard immediately after Smith passes. Why did Eagle or Lave did not see Stride and the man with the parcel in the yard?

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

So Mortimer just misses seeing PC Smith, and Stride and Parcel Man go into Dutfields Yard immediately after Smith passes. Why did Eagle or Lave did not see Stride and the man with the parcel in the yard?

I believe Stride went in the yard, whether it was with Parcel or someone else I can't say.

Nobody could see in the yard. There could have been Stride, BS Man, Pipeman, Lave, Eagle, & Goldstein in the yard and they wouldn't have seen each other. Lave had to feel along the wall to even know where he was.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Observer,



I believe Stride went in the yard, whether it was with Parcel or someone else I can't say.

Nobody could see in the yard. There could have been Stride, BS Man, Pipeman, Lave, Eagle, & Goldstein in the yard and they wouldn't have seen each other. Lave had to feel along the wall to even know where he was.

Cheers
DRoy

Afraid not D. Thats not possible. Lets put this to bed. Not one of the witnesses seem able to compute the passage of time accurately during the crucial period leading up to the death of Liz Stride. I believe all spoke truthfully, the thing is they were out in therir timings. It's entirely feasible that Schwartz witnessed an assualt upon Liz Stride, were talking mere minutes from commencment to end regarding this assualt. It's entirely feasible that no one witnessed this assault bar Schwartz, and Pipeman.

Regards

Observer

[DVV]

Dave,
With all do respect to him, you and Mr. Begg, I have a tough time believing the journalists little summary that isn't quoted over those versions of her story that are quoted.
Cheers
DRoy

Hi Roy

that shouldn't be so tough a time.
Embellishments are more likely to appear in the 2nd edition than in the first.
I'm sure SPE would agree on this.

Cheers

[DRoy]

Dave,

That's possible. However we wouldn't know who the source for the story was. It could have been a neighbor of Mortimer's and not Mortimer herself. Since she isn't quited in the first story we can assume it wasn't from Mortimer herself. Therefore it would be less valuable.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, do you think a man chosen to cover a murderer would have come with a ludicrous reason, and not a single English word ?
With a story possibly involving two men, when the Whitechapel murderer was generally believed to be a lone killer ?

Cheers

A good question David, and No,...because I dont believe the story as it is told is entirely Schwartz's creation. I believe the fact that he had been at the market that afternoon allowed him to state that he was returning from it...since we know that Louis is coming home around 1am, after the markets had closed. I believe the remark that he makes concerning his reason for being specifically at that spot is a contrived one....designed to conceal the fact that he actually attended the meeting that night, instead of tending to his wife and the move earlier that evening. I believe that the story of the altercation and the 2 men is told to enable the Club to provide the club with an alibi, essentially absolving itself of any possible improprieties in this matter. The story concludes at a time when by Blackwells estimates Liz Stride may have received her cut,... making the Broadshouldered Gentile, (another fabrication designed to deflect the general animosity towards the Jews over the perception at that time that an Immigrant Jews was Jack the Ripper), the most probable murderer.

Its possible,.... since Wess translated for Goldstein when he made his statement, and since its been alleged that Wess and Schwartz were at least acquaintances in the not so distant past, that Wess approached Schwartz with a request to help out himself personally, or for the club,...by giving what amounts to be a misdirection story to the Police. His lack of English actually gives him some wiggle room here..because it would always be possible that Wess's version of the translated story was inaccurate due to a mistranslation.

Its possible that Wess may have "mistranslated" on purpose...for self serving reasons.

So...instead of Schwartz telling the Police what may have actually transpired...that when he went to leave the club via the kitchen door at round 12:45, he entered the passageway and he saw a thug type man who was at the club that night accosting a woman just inside the gates...perhaps even killing her at that moment....he then scuffled past them and out the gates and probably did run "incontinently" home from there..........he proffers the story when "translated" that places the altercation off the premises, with a Gentile...who by virtue of the timing is almost certainly her killer.

He has nothing to fear from the real killer...because the story is false and no-one is looking at any of the club attendees for very long. Even... perhaps, a thug that was hired by the club to keep order in case the rumored violence was to happen that night...despite the late cancellation of Morris as the speaker.

Cheers David

[Michael W Richards]

Afraid not D. Thats not possible. Lets put this to bed. Not one of the witnesses seem able to compute the passage of time accurately during the crucial period leading up to the death of Liz Stride. I believe all spoke truthfully, the thing is they were out in therir timings. It's entirely feasible that Schwartz witnessed an assualt upon Liz Stride, were talking mere minutes from commencment to end regarding this assualt. It's entirely feasible that no one witnessed this assault bar Schwartz, and Pipeman.

Regards

Observer

Thats not a very likely conclusion Observer,... and, if you examine witness accounts from the night of the murder, within 1 hour of its happening, you do get stories from members that corroborate each others times and that clearly explain why Fanny never heard or saw anything near the gates at around 12:45. You get stories from men inside the club that would have had the facility to check a clock before doing what they said they did at around that time, unlike Morris or Louis.... and you get a story from a key member of the witness group....a key member because Louis says that he went with this member after 1am to look for help....and the member says just after the murder that he left alone, at Louis's request....about 10 minutes after he arrived back at the club at 12:30.

Short story is that there are at least 4 people who stated that night that they were alerted to the body in the passageway at around 12:40....which of course disagrees directly with the accounts given by the clubs management and its speaker that night as well as a supposed witness that does not give testimony at the Inquest....but not with anything that Fanny Mortimer said, or James Brown.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

I know it's entirely unoriginal, but after all very few people in this area owned timepieces of any kind...All estimates of time are therefore based on either church bells striking the quarter, displays in shop windows, or sheer guesswork...

OK there are a few fobwatches around but not really very many...in fact you could easily be mugged for one!

ALL timings are therefore very approximate indeed - and this applies throughout from Nichols through Stride to Kelly. and if necessary beyond...

Listen up...until as recently as the 60's my paternal grandmother used to judge time based on the whistling of passing trains on the adjacent (to where she lived) London to Brighton main line at Lovers Walk...and this was despite being presented with a watch!

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Short story is that there are at least 4 people who stated that night that they were alerted to the body in the passageway at around 12:40....which of course disagrees directly with the accounts given by the clubs management and its speaker that night as well as a supposed witness that does not give testimony at the Inquest....but not with anything that Fanny Mortimer said, or James Brown.

Cheers

Michael.

Have you taken the trouble to collect all the relevant statements (both press & Inquest) which have a bearing on the time, witnesses, police, doctors, etc. and see if there is justification for a reassessment of the time of discovery based not on 1:00 am (Diemshitz), but on 12:40 am?

[Michael W Richards]

Michael.

Have you taken the trouble to collect all the relevant statements (both press & Inquest) which have a bearing on the time, witnesses, police, doctors, etc. and see if there is justification for a reassessment of the time of discovery based not on 1:00 am (Diemshitz), but on 12:40 am?

I have studied all the relevant materials Jon, and as I said, there is some substance to a claim that the actual time of the bodies discovery was before 12:45. Im surmising that if that were the case then Louis would likely have been there at around the same time, ...so, if its the case then we have some people providing false times intentionally. The "people" in this case happen to be the most responsible for the club and its operations, and their stories are the ones that have no secondary witness accounts to support them.

Cheers Jon

[Observer]

Hi Mike

Firstly I'd say have a look at Dave's post (40) and take note. I incidently agree with him.

Let me ask you a question. Why the subterfuge, the conspiring to decieve?

Like you, I have studied all the relevent material, and can't for the life of me come to the conclusion that you arrive at. What you suggest requires a very large stretch of the imagination for your theory to be anywhere near the truth.. More of this later.

If you look at the various witness statements, that is the statements they made to the police, at inquest, and in the press you'll see that their individual statements varied somewhat. Indeed statements by the same individual varied between newspapers. This is exactly the sort of thing I would expect. Winesses can not state precise times unless they looked at a timepiece prior to the incident they are describing.

If there was collusion between club member's I would expect their times regarding the incident they were describing to be consistent. This is clearly not the case.

Let me conduct a little mind exercise. I'll base it roughly on the method's you employ to arrive at the conclusion that Liz Stride was found by club member's of the IWEC at 12:40 a.m. And that member's lied to the police, the inquest, and the press to conceal the fact that a club member had murdered Liz Stride.

I contend that Joseph Lawende murdered Kate Eddowes.

All things Japanese, and Chinese were very popular in Victorian London, and the imperial Club in Duke Street decide to put on a Chinese night. And so on the night of the 29 September 1888 Lawende, Harris, and Levy found themselves at the club enjoying the Nuit Chinoiserie.

They had Chinese transvestite Hav A Luk (aka Limehouse Lil) perform a striptease, Saki wine tasting, Bonsai for beginners presented by Charlie Chan, and, wait for it, opium (Kosher) pipes by the dozen to enjoy.

Now Mr Lawende, (not being fully aware of the effects of opium) over indulged, and as they spilled out onto the street he was in mischeivous mood.

As they passed Church Passage Mr Levy remarked "Look there, I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about" . Lawende looked across the street, but all he could see was a huge psychedelic baloon. As I said he was in mischievous mood and Lawende ran across the street and kicked the baloon.

He kicked it down Church Passage into Mitre Square, and as it came to rest in the corner of the square, he decided to burst it. Drawing out the ornamental Japanese dragon dagger he'd bought at the club he punctured the balloon, and commenced to slash at it, wearing himself out in the process.

Wearily he returned to Levy, and Harris, and they made their way home.

The next day Lawende as he put his trousers on felt something sticky aginst his leg, he put his hand in his pocket and pulled out a human kidney. He immediately went and sought out Levy, who told him that a woman had been murdered in Mitre square the night before. Lawende quickly realised what he had done, and the next stop was Harris's house.

To cut a long story short, all three decided to agree that they had seen Kate Eddowes in Duke Street the night before, but that they has saw her talking to a man. Sailor man was born. The rest is history.

This conspiracy stuff, piece of cake.
Regards

Observer

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike

Firstly I'd say have a look at Dave's post (40) and take note. I incidently agree with him.

Let me ask you a question. Why the subterfuge, the conspiring to decieve?

Like you, I have studied all the relevent material, and can't for the life of me come to the conclusion that you arrive at. What you suggest requires a very large stretch of the imagination for your theory to be anywhere near the truth.. More of this later.

If you look at the various witness statements, that is the statements they made to the police, at inquest, and in the press you'll see that their individual statements varied somewhat. Indeed statements by the same individual varied between newspapers. This is exactly the sort of thing I would expect. Winesses can not state precise times unless they looked at a timepiece prior to the incident they are describing.

If there was collusion between club member's I would expect their times regarding the incident they were describing to be consistent. This is clearly not the case.

Let me conduct a little mind exercise. I'll base it roughly on the method's you employ to arrive at the conclusion that Liz Stride was found by club member's of the IWEC at 12:40 a.m. And that member's lied to the police, the inquest, and the press to conceal the fact that a club member had murdered Liz Stride.

I contend that Joseph Lawende murdered Kate Eddowes.

All things Japanese, and Chinese were very popular in Victorian London, and the imperial Club in Duke Street decide to put on a Chinese night. And so on the night of the 29 September 1888 Lawende, Harris, and Levy found themselves at the club enjoying the Nuit Chinoiserie.

They had Chinese transvestite Hav A Luk (aka Limehouse Lil) perform a striptease, Saki wine tasting, Bonsai for beginners presented by Charlie Chan, and, wait for it, opium (Kosher) pipes by the dozen to enjoy.

Now Mr Lawende, (not being fully aware of the effects of opium) over indulged, and as they spilled out onto the street he was in mischeivous mood.

As they passed Church Passage Mr Levy remarked "Look there, I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about" . Lawende looked across the street, but all he could see was a huge psychedelic baloon. As I said he was in mischievous mood and Lawende ran across the street and kicked the baloon.

He kicked it down Church Passage into Mitre Square, and as it came to rest in the corner of the square, he decided to burst it. Drawing out the ornamental Japanese dragon dagger he'd bought at the club he punctured the balloon, and commenced to slash at it, wearing himself out in the process.

Wearily he returned to Levy, and Harris, and they made their way home.

The next day Lawende as he put his trousers on felt something sticky aginst his leg, he put his hand in his pocket and pulled out a human kidney. He immediately went and sought out Levy, who told him that a woman had been murdered in Mitre square the night before. Lawende quickly realised what he had done, and the next stop was Harris's house.

To cut a long story short, all three decided to agree that they had seen Kate Eddowes in Duke Street the night before, but that they has saw her talking to a man. Sailor man was born. The rest is history.

This conspiracy stuff, piece of cake.
Regards

Observer

And your suggesting that I am the imaginative one here?

There is no question regarding witnesses that stated the night of the murder they were in the passageway to see the dead woman shortly after 12:30...its documented. Its all right there in the press of the day. Nothing for me to construct, as it were.

As to why the club members would be willing to provide false times to ease any suspicions that they had something to do with the murder..that my friend is simply a matter of their history and your understanding of human nature.

Cheers

[Observer]

The point is Mike, where evidence is lacking one can make up any story one wants. And there's no reliable evidence which suggests that Liz Stride's body was found at 12:40 a.m. September the 30th 1888.

One thing, I wrote that story before I was aware of the horrific events that transpired yesterday in Woolwich. I myself am an ex British serviceman, and I aplologise if my scenario was a little too graphic. My thoughts are with the soldier and his family.

Regards

Observer