If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

While reviewing I've come across some curiosities:

Liz was thought to have taken up with the brother of her former employer, who probably could be thought of as a toff.

Bricklayer's Arms Man?

She had some time before been involved with George Morris, the night watchman at Kearley and Tonge's and former police officer. Given the population of the area at that time, what are the odds of Morris having involvement with two of the Whitechapel murder victims?

One would presume, very long.

Michael Kidney turned up at Leman street to loudly protest Liz's death before her body had been identified. Since they had been parted for five days and he didn't know if or when she might return, how did he deduce that she was the Berner St victim? I can envisage a scenario we he somehow found out she was out with someone else, and where they might be, found her in the yard waiting for her new beau to complete whatever he was doing in the yard, and killed her in a fit of drunken jealousy. The suspicious man seen after the murder in Church Lane would have been on a direct backstreet route to 38 Dorset St, where Kidney lived at the time.

Cheers, George

On a scale of 0 to 10, where 0.1 is a mouse, and 10 is a screaming match, how loud do suppose Kidney killing her in a fit of drunken jealousy, might have been?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

On the suggestion that PC Smith arrived at the yard at 1.00 or before….

Can you quote PC Smith saying he arrived at the yard at or before 1am? Can you quote a poster saying this? Or has this suggestion been 'assigned' to certain posters, by yourself?

We can say with a very high level of confidence that Johnston arrived at the yard at 1.12/1.13

We can also have a high level of confidence of the time when Smith went to fetch an ambulance…..1.12/1.13

Only if we have a high level of confidence in the accuracy of Blackwell's pocket watch.

So if PC Smith arrived at the yard at 1.00, to find a dead body and 2 other Police Officers, can we really think it at all likely that he stood around scratching his backside and discussing the weather for 12 or 13 minutes before going for an ambulance? Three police officers took 12 or 13 minutes to come to the decision that an ambulance would be needed?

The reason for Smith remaining at the yard for some time, after he identified the victim as the woman he had seen previously, has been put in front of you several times before.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Based on the evidence we have, it's also perfectly possible that the constable Brown saw was, in fact, Collins. We just don't know how he was alerted to the murder, just that he'd arrived in the yard before Smith did.

There are only two ways this could work:

one: someone had to have seen the search party run along and back Fairclough street, then hung around the Christian street intersection, at least until Collins arrived, who then stands at the corner until said person tells them they are wanted. Collins then runs along to Berner street, apparently without any further verbal indication as to where he should run.

two: Brown was completely mistaken about Spooner being a constable, and Collins was never at that corner. Why someone would tell Spooner that he was wanted, is unclear. This scenario also leaves unanswered why Brown made no mention of the 'constable' being with a woman.

It seems very clear to me what the situation was.

When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased.

The screams ceased. There was a short period of no noise.

The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

Spooner stood at the same intersection, and his story is almost identical...

After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard, adjoining No. 40, Berner-street.

Spooner lived at 26 Fairclough street. What was the point of him and his alleged lady friend walking almost to his place, only to stand talking at the next corner, for nearly half an hour?

Then there is the whistle issue.

As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay. Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

So the only person Spooner met on his way to Berner street, just happened to be someone he knew, who had come out of his house after hearing a police whistle. Brown seems to have perceived Spooner as being a policeman. Who blew the whistle?

[drstrange169]

>> I agree, though, that Smith missed seeing any PC running up Berner Street.<<

Not just Berner, but Commercial as well.

Which means Smith's time was well out or Ayliffe took another route. My guess that might be Batty Gardens. Or alternatively, Smith came through Batty.

[drstrange169]

>>... one wonders how the Fixed point PC knew when it was 1 o'clock and time to knock off?<<

A sergeant normally tells them, but in this case given no sergeant came to the murder site, it might well have been Lamb.

[drstrange169]

>> it's perhaps possible that he was able to see a clock on the St. Augustine's Church (if it had one) on the opposite side of Commercial Road, between Settles Street and Parfett Street. <<

There may have been a clock in the chemists window. I think this was the chemists shop that was involved in the Lipski case.

[GBinOz]

>> I agree, though, that Smith missed seeing any PC running up Berner Street.<<

Not just Berner, but Commercial as well.

Which means Smith's time was well out or Ayliffe took another route. My guess that might be Batty Gardens. Or alternatively, Smith came through Batty.

Having just recently discovered Gavin Bromley's dissertation, I was now thinking that Smith would have been approaching the Commercialst /Berner St corner from the west - Gower's walk. Isn't that what Bromley's beat map would indicate?

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Frank,

So Ayliffe was 426 H, and Collins was 436 H and the later had arrived just before Smith?

All the following from the Times.

Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed as follows: - About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder." I said, "Where?" As they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down the street. Seeing people moving about some distance down Berner-street, I ran down that street followed by Constable 426 H. I went into the gateway of No. 40, Berner-street and saw something dark lying on the right-hand side, close to the gates. I turned my light on and found it was a woman. I saw that her throat was cut, and she appeared to be dead. I at once sent the other constable for the nearest doctor, and I sent a young man that was standing by to the police-station to inform the inspector that a woman was lying in Berner-street with her throat cut, and apparently dead.

Edward Johnston said:- I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.

Police-constable William Smith, 452 H, said that on Saturday night his beat was past Berner-street. It went from the corner of Jower's-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street and Fairclough-street as far as Grove-street, then back along Fairclough-street as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as the Commercial-road, taking all the interior streets, including Berner-street and Batley-street [Batty-street]. The witness continued, - It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H.

Constable 12 HR said, - At half-past 5 on Sunday morning I washed all traces of blood away. That was after the doctors had left. There were no traces of blood on the wall.

Johnston's reference to 436H was a mistake (or he was possibly misheard). It was 426H William Ayliffe.
So we have this arrival order:

252H: Lamb
426H: Ayliffe
12HR: Collins
452H: Smith

Lamb responded to a question from the coroner by giving a time since he passed the Commercial Rd / Berner St corner. My thought was that that may have been the source of time for Ayliffe to leave his shift?

Cheers, George

Whatever the case, I doubt he could not have followed Lamb, just because it was not exactly 1am. A minute or two to one, would be close enough for common sense to prevail.

[GBinOz]

Bricklayer's Arms Man?

One would presume, very long.

On a scale of 0 to 10, where 0.1 is a mouse, and 10 is a screaming match, how loud do suppose Kidney killing her in a fit of drunken jealousy, might have been?

Schwartz said not very loud. Liz gets up after the not-very-loud screams and walks away, Kidney pulls his knife and grabs her by the scarf ,turning her and pushing her down and cuts her throat just as she hits the ground, thus avoiding the arterial spray on himself and the walls. If she'd had these arguments with Kidney before she wouldn't have been expecting the dramatically different outcome that occured on this occasion.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

All the following from the Times.

Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed as follows: - About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder." I said, "Where?" As they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down the street. Seeing people moving about some distance down Berner-street, I ran down that street followed by Constable 426 H. I went into the gateway of No. 40, Berner-street and saw something dark lying on the right-hand side, close to the gates. I turned my light on and found it was a woman. I saw that her throat was cut, and she appeared to be dead. I at once sent the other constable for the nearest doctor, and I sent a young man that was standing by to the police-station to inform the inspector that a woman was lying in Berner-street with her throat cut, and apparently dead.

Edward Johnston said:- I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.

Police-constable William Smith, 452 H, said that on Saturday night his beat was past Berner-street. It went from the corner of Jower's-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street and Fairclough-street as far as Grove-street, then back along Fairclough-street as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as the Commercial-road, taking all the interior streets, including Berner-street and Batley-street [Batty-street]. The witness continued, - It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H.

Constable 12 HR said, - At half-past 5 on Sunday morning I washed all traces of blood away. That was after the doctors had left. There were no traces of blood on the wall.

Johnston's reference to 436H was a mistake (or he was possibly misheard). It was 426H William Ayliffe.
So we have this arrival order:

252H: Lamb
426H: Ayliffe
12HR: Collins
452H: Smith

Whatever the case, I doubt he could not have followed Lamb, just because it was not exactly 1am. A minute or two to one, would be close enough for common sense to prevail.

Close, but no cigar. The list from https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...personnel.html

PC 252H Henry Lamb
PC 282H Joseph Drage
PC 452H William Smith
PC 12HR Albert Collins
PC 262H Thomas Barrett (PC 226H—Times Aug 10th 1888)

Whatever the case, I doubt he could not have followed Lamb, just because it was not exactly 1am. A minute or two to one, would be close enough for common sense to prevail. I think that would be a reasonable assessment.

Cheers, George

[drstrange169]

>> I was now thinking that Smith would have been approaching the Commercialst /Berner St corner from the west - Gower's walk.<<

Then why would Lamb be covering the same ground about 10 minutes before him?

[GBinOz]

>> I was now thinking that Smith would have been approaching the Commercialst /Berner St corner from the west - Gower's walk.<<

Then why would Lamb be covering the same ground about 10 minutes before him?

Looking at Bromley's beat map Smith could only have approached that corner from Gowers Walk or Berner St. Partial overlap of beats? Didn't Neil and Thain overlap in Brady St?

Cheers, George

[drstrange169]

I assumed Thain was covering the East side of Brady Street, but I don't know for sure.

[drstrange169]

I just checked and Thain's beat was on the other side of the road.

[GBinOz]

I just checked and Thain's beat was on the other side of the road.

So if Smith was on beat, where was he coming from when he approached the Commercial Rd/ Berner St corner?

Cheers, George