If Schwartz Lied ...

[drstrange169]

>>Dusty, you knew of the existance of this piece and didn't draw my/our attention to it?<<

Patience Grasshopper, there is much to learn, “It shines, somewhere, you do not see it”.

[FrankO]

I wasn’t imagining it after all

Indeed, you don't need to worry about that (any more), Michael!

[FrankO]

This is from the Wiki:
Edward Collins
Reserve Police Constable Edward Albert Collins, 12HR.
Born 1847. Joined Metropolitan Police in 1873 (warrant no.56929), subsequently transferred to reserve.

Accompanied PC Henry Lamb to Dutfield's Yard after Lamb was alerted to the discovery of Elizabeth Stride's body by Morris Eagle in Commercial Road at a little after 1.00am, 30th September 1888. Collins was sent to fetch Dr Frederick Blackwell from his house at 100 Commercial Road, and returned to the scene with Edward Johnston, Blackwell's assistant.

At 5.30am, PC Collins washed the blood from the yard^[1]. He also stated that there was no traces of blood on the walls.^[2]

Collins has also been called constable 426H (by Lamb)^[3] and 436H (by Johnston).^[4]

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I must confess that I hadn't read Wiki, but now that I have, I can't say that I agree and I'll tell you why.

If PC's 12 HR and 426/436 H would have been one and the same (Collins), then Smith couldn't have seen him and Lamb at the crime spot when he got there. Because when, some time later, he went to fetch the ambulance, Edward Johnson was just arriving at the yard accompanied by the constable that had been sent by Lamb to fetch the doctor. This constable, of course, was constable 426 H. So, to me, it's clear that they were 2 different contables.

The best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

On the suggestion that PC Smith arrived at the yard at 1.00 or before….

We can say with a very high level of confidence that Johnston arrived at the yard at 1.12/1.13

It was then 1.16. I was there three or four minutes before Dr. Blackwell.

We can also have a high level of confidence of the time when Smith went to fetch an ambulance…..1.12/1.13

. he saw the deceased and went to fetch the ambulance. Dr Frederick Blackwell's assistant Edward Johnston was just arriving as he left

So if PC Smith arrived at the yard at 1.00, to find a dead body and 2 other Police Officers, can we really think it at all likely that he stood around scratching his backside and discussing the weather for 12 or 13 minutes before going for an ambulance? Three police officers took 12 or 13 minutes to come to the decision that an ambulance would be needed?

[FrankO]

That Market is well south of Berner Street. The shortest route to Dutfield's Yard would be by way of Fairclough Street. Was there a baker's near the corner of Fairclough and Berner?

I don't know if that's true, Fiver. The closest bridge for Diemshutz to take was the London Bridge (thanks to Caz I know that the Tower Bridge was still under construction in 1888 and not finished until 1894), and via London Bridge the best route to Berner Street seems to have been: Fenchurch Street, Aldgate High Street, Commercial Road.

The best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Do you also accept that Collins most likely went to the doctor's surgery by running back up Berner street? Smith did not see Collins do that.

That's probably because Collins didn't go to fetch the doctor, Andrew - it was Ayliffe who did that. See my post # 1893. I agree, though, that Smith missed seeing any PC running up Berner Street.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

I must confess that I hadn't read Wiki, but now that I have, I can't say that I agree and I'll tell you why.

If PC's 12 HR and 426/436 H would have been one and the same (Collins), then Smith couldn't have seen him and Lamb at the crime spot when he got there. Because when, some time later, he went to fetch the ambulance, Edward Johnson was just arriving at the yard accompanied by the constable that had been sent by Lamb to fetch the doctor. This constable, of course, was constable 426 H. So, to me, it's clear that they were 2 different contables.

The best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I'm more than a little confused. From the various accounts I have read I thought that Lamb arrived at the yard either accompanied by another PC, or in the other account, with another PC following closely. One account has him being called when he is alone walking toward Berner St after being at the Fixed point and another account when he is at the Fixed point. These accounts are what suggested to me that Collins was the Fixed point PC. I know now about the "no leaving till one" rule but Lamb was calling the notification as times around 1 o'clock - was this why the second PC was following? For that matter, one wonders how the Fixed point PC knew when it was 1 o'clock and time to knock off?

I'm a little lost. Are you suggesting that Lamb arrived with Ayliffe and he went for the doctor as Collins arrived to make up the two constables that Smith saw when he arrived?

Cheers, George

[FrankO]

If that that was the reason, then he would have run in the direction of the sound of the whistle. The man James Brown witnessed being called to Berner street, was not running...

Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

Based on the evidence we have, it's also perfectly possible that the constable Brown saw was, in fact, Collins. We just don't know how he was alerted to the murder, just that he'd arrived in the yard before Smith did.

[GBinOz]

That's probably because Collins didn't go to fetch the doctor, Andrew - it was Ayliffe who did that. See my post # 1893. I agree, though, that Smith missed seeing any PC running up Berner Street.

Hi Frank,

I've just re-read two inquest reports and they say that Lamb identified the Constable that ran to the yard with him as 436 H. Isn't this the constable that Lamb sent for the doctor? There is no mention of Ayliffe 426 H arriving in time to be sent for the doctor. Was Collins number 436 H?

Cheers, George

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

I'm more than a little confused. From the various accounts I have read I thought that Lamb arrived at the yard either accompanied by another PC, or in the other account, with another PC following closely. One account has him being called when he is alone walking toward Berner St after being at the Fixed point and another account when he is at the Fixed point. These accounts are what suggested to me that Collins was the Fixed point PC. I know now about the "no leaving till one" rule but Lamb was calling the notification as times around 1 o'clock - was this why the second PC was following? For that matter, one wonders how the Fixed point PC knew when it was 1 o'clock and time to knock off?

Hi George,

Yes, it can certainly be confusing out here, especially when there are so many different versions of statements by the same person, which are not completely corresponding with so many different statements by another person. For instance, Lamb - just as you say - stated he was approached by 2 men running & shouting when he was between Batty Street and Christian Street, whilst from Eagle's statement versions one might conclude that he approached 2 constables on his own and that he found them at the corner of Grove Street. Fortunately, there are also statements by Kozebrodski saying that he went into Commercial Road with Eagle and that they found 2 officers.

Studying all the different versions of statements by all of the important witnesses, I think it's a fair assumption to state that Eagle and Kozebrodski found Lamb and that PC 426 H, who had been on fixed point duty on the corner of Grove Street and - it being just after one o'clock - had just finished his shift, so that he was allowed to follow the other 3 going to Berner Street. This all fits with Lamb's statement versions and would also explain why Lamb said that PC 426 H followed him, as he was at least some 50 meters away (the distance from Christian Street to Grove Street) from Lamb when the 2 men spoke to Lamb.

How PC 426 H (Ayliffe) would have known the time, is unknown to us, but it's perhaps possible that he was able to see a clock on the St. Augustine's Church (if it had one) on the opposite side of Commercial Road, between Settles Street and Parfett Street. That's just something that I think is a possibility, having read somewhere that fixed point duties were often positioned close to some clock. Another possibility is that his sergeant informed him some short while before that his shift would end in about x (5, 10, 15) minutes.

I'm a little lost. Are you suggesting that Lamb arrived with Ayliffe and he [Ayliffe] went for the doctor as Collins arrived to make up the two constables that Smith saw when he arrived?

That is exactly what I'm saying, George!

Hope you're more than a little less confused now.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

I've just re-read two inquest reports and they say that Lamb identified the Constable that ran to the yard with him as 436 H. Isn't this the constable that Lamb sent for the doctor? There is no mention of Ayliffe 426 H arriving in time to be sent for the doctor. Was Collins number 436 H?

The name Ayliffe was uncovered by respected fellow-poster "Monty", who in real life is called Neil Bell and with his knowledge of police procedures of the day wrote, among others, the book "Capturing Jack the Ripper: In the Boots of a Bobby in Victorian London". So, there's no mention of Ayliffe because his name wasn't mentioned in the evidence of the day, he was only mentioned as PC 426 H and in some places - but mistakenly, I think - as 436 H. And, yes, Lamb sent PC 426 H to fetch the doctor.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

. How PC 426 H (Ayliffe) would have known the time, is unknown to us, but it's perhaps possible that he was able to see a clock on the St. Augustine's Church (if it had one) on the opposite side of Commercial Road, between Settles Street and Parfett Street. That's just something that I think is a possibility, having read somewhere that fixed point duties were often positioned close to some clock. Another possibility is that his sergeant informed him some short while before that his shift would end in about x (5, 10, 15) minutes.

You would have missed this Frank but I got a question to Neil Bell via Jon Menges and Neil said that the sergeant who took his officers out on duty would have rounded up the fixed point men (although occasionally another officer was delegated to do the rounding up) although I think Neil said that they tried where possible to locate them near to a clock but this wasn’t always possible. So Ayliffe could easily have still been in situ after 1.00 waiting for his sergeant to arrive.

[FrankO]

You would have missed this Frank but I got a question to Neil Bell via Jon Menges and Neil said that the sergeant who took his officers out on duty would have rounded up the fixed point men (although occasionally another officer was delegated to do the rounding up) although I think Neil said that they tried where possible to locate them near to a clock but this wasn’t always possible.

Thanks for the additional information, Mike!

So Ayliffe could easily have still been in situ after 1.00 waiting for his sergeant to arrive.

Assuming that Ayliffe wasn't allowed to leave his post until he was releaved/told his shift was over, I think his sergeant had already round him up. But maybe that's a wrong assumption on my part!

Cheers,
Frank

[GBinOz]

Thanks for the additional information, Mike!

Assuming that Ayliffe wasn't allowed to leave his post until he was releaved/told his shift was over, I think his sergeant had already round him up. But maybe that's a wrong assumption on my part!

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

So Ayliffe was 426 H, and Collins was 436 H and the later had arrived just before Smith?

Lamb responded to a question from the coroner by giving a time since he passed the Commercial Rd / Berner St corner. My thought was that that may have been the source of time for Ayliffe to leave his shift?

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

How long would it have taken Collins to have run from the yard to 1.00 Commercial Road? A minute or so? Johnston said that he’d arrived at his door between 1.05 and 1.10. We don’t know what time Collins got to the yard originally though so why couldn’t Smith and Collins have arrived seconds apart but from different directions? So for example, Lamb/Ayliffe 1.05, Smith under a minute later at 1.06. Then a few seconds after Smith had arrived Collins arrived and was sent for the doctor, arriving there at around 1.08?

It was Ayliffe that ran to the doctors, of course - that was my mistake that Frank corrected me on in a later post.
The reason Smith cannot arrive one minute after Lamb, is given by Smith...

I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police."

Smith was out hearing range of Lamb's whistle. Smith must have arrived at least 3 minutes after Lamb and Ayliffe. Possibly 4 and conceivably 5. So if Lamb arrived at 1:05, then Smith arrived at about 1:09.

By the way, Collins arrived before Smith, not after.

I shouldn’t have used the word ‘average.’ I should have said ‘range.’ My whole point though is that if the route usually took 25-30 minutes why do you consider it impossible that it might have taken 31 or even 32 minutes.

Smith gave no indication that his final yard to yard round took longer than normal...

I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

Its not a fudge it’s a reasonable, unbiased acceptance that we cannot rigidly adhere to timings. Do we really have to keep explaining this very basic principle. The fudge is your unwillingness to accept what everyone knows to have been true. ‘Most likely…’ ‘more likely’ ‘probably.’

Actually it is a fudge. For you to suppose that Smith was last on Berner street at 12:30 or 12:35, returning at about 1:09 gives him a beat of at least 34 minutes. So this is clearly wrong. So your simplest choice is to have Smith last on Berner street at about 12:40, or have Smith arriving at the yard no later than 1:05, with Lamb arriving 3 to 5 minutes before that.

Who had undoubtedly just returned from a Fancy Dress Party where he’d gone as a Police Officer. Ok.

That was my joke, but okay.

The presence or otherwise of Israel Schwartz is of no consequence to me. A fair, reasonable appraisal of the case taking in reasonable considerations is important however.

Do not give up on Israel Schwartz or you may find yourself cast into the Ripperological Wilderness.