If Schwartz Lied ...

[drstrange169]

>>To which servants are you referring?<<

Milly Koravitz Servant 23 Kadish Poland. General Servant

[drstrange169]

>>Diemshitz closed his stall earlier than usual so he would have arrived back at the yard earlier than usual ...<<









No matter how people try to alter it to suit their needs, the actual evidence always wins through.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I gave a link to some photos in my post # 1761. Here it is again:https://www.casebook.org/victorian_l....w-berner.html

The clock was in the Harris Tobacco shop window. Smith and Lamb would have had a clear view. Diemshitz would be looking from further away, possibly with the corner masonary obscuring his view. It would be doubtful if it's chime, if it had one, could be heard on the street over the clatter of the horse's hooves.

Cheer, George

Hi George,

Thanks for the link. I must be thinking of photos from elsewhere, those aren't what I was remembering. Anyway, the contemporary one is from the wrong end as the yard is to the left side, looking from Fairclough and past the club and towards Commercial) so we can't see the building where the clock was. And, the club is too close to the other street for it to be a case of the image being left-right reversed. I've clearly got a false memory from somewhere, as I keep thinking he checked a post office clock. Quite likely I've misremembered PC Harris checking the PO clock during his rounds for the Eddowes' case, or something like that.

Do you recall where it is that Deimshutz says he checked the clock in the tobacco shop window?

Thanks.

- Jeff

P.S. Nice phots in the posts above.

[drstrange169]

>> Modern night shot, building still standing<<

Where is the Street lamp that shone on the window in 1888?
And the modern shop has shutters or blinds over the windows.

No matter how people try to alter it to suit their needs, the actual evidence always wins through.

[DJA]

The white waggon is prolly a tram.

Duke of Clarence

Great work George.

[drstrange169]

>>Do you recall where it is that Deimshutz says he checked the clock in the tobacco shop window? <<


Various inquest reports, this one is from the Morning Post.

[drstrange169]

Shutters!

[drstrange169]

Deimshitz turned into Berner St. As the Harris clock showed 1:00 a.m. He was earlier than usual, normally arriving half an hour to an hour later, so he had the perfect reason to look for the time as he turned for home.

[GBinOz]

>> Modern night shot, building still standing<<

Where is the Street lamp that shone on the window in 1888?
And the modern shop has shutters or blinds over the windows.

No matter how people try to alter it to suit their needs, the actual evidence always wins through.

Hi Dusty,

The shutters are on the Berner St facade. The tobacconist shop would have provided the clock as a courtesy for their customers approaching the front door in Commercial Road, not for the convenience of drowsy pedlars turning into Berner St. Even if the shutters were open, his view from Berner St would have been of the side of the clock.

The point being made is that in all the interviews with Diemshitz dated 1 October he never once mentioned seeing the tobacconist clock, only that he arrived back at his "usual" time of 1 o'clock, and in one of the interviews he said "the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual". The reasonable conclusion from that statement is that he did not arrive back quite as late as usual.

The archive photos show that it would have been far easier for Lamb and Smith to have viewed the clock in the Commercial St window than for Diemshitz to have seen it past the corner masonary. It is inconceivable to me that trained Police Constables, knowing they were on their way to a murder site, would not have glanced at a clock that they passed many times on their every beat. Diemshitz didn't know what he was about to find, had no need to look at the clock, and only mentioned the clock at the inquest after he had time to polish up what he said in his train wreck interviews. One of the journalists even excused one of his incorrect statements on the basis that he was frightened and confused. On top of this I'm finding articles on Diemshitz that indicate he was an unsavoury character, and therefore far less believable that the two police officers. I'm now wondering why he felt the need to embellish all his press statements with an "exact" time from a clock at the inquest when he hade never mentioned it previously. I agree with your statement above, but perhaps not at which side of the argument it should be targetted. An augmented statement from a person of questionable character does not constitute evidence, just questionable testimony.

Please note that I don't wish to convey an angry or disparaging note in my comments. I am only trying to present a calm logical opinion in the spirit of vigorous but friendly discussion.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Deimshitz turned into Berner St. As the Harris clock showed 1:00 a.m. He was earlier than usual, normally arriving half an hour to an hour later, so he had the perfect reason to look for the time as he turned for home.

If he "was earlier than usual, normally arriving half an hour to an hour later" at his "usual" time of 1:00am, then how can the clock be showing 1:00am?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Thanks for the link. I must be thinking of photos from elsewhere, those aren't what I was remembering. Anyway, the contemporary one is from the wrong end as the yard is to the left side, looking from Fairclough and past the club and towards Commercial) so we can't see the building where the clock was. And, the club is too close to the other street for it to be a case of the image being left-right reversed. I've clearly got a false memory from somewhere, as I keep thinking he checked a post office clock. Quite likely I've misremembered PC Harris checking the PO clock during his rounds for the Eddowes' case, or something like that.

Do you recall where it is that Deimshutz says he checked the clock in the tobacco shop window?

Thanks.

- Jeff

P.S. Nice phots in the posts above.

Hi Jeff,

Have another look in the link I posted. The fifth photo from the top is from the Commercial Rd Berner St intersection.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Dusty,

Have a look at the archive photo. There don't appear to be shutters on the Berner St window but it does appear to have shelves of product display substantially blocking the view inside. The clock wouldn't have been faced towards Berner St anyway.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The only real purpose of knowing an accurate discovery time is to determine the interval between when Stride had the knife drawn across her throat and when her body was first seen in the yard. This is the basis of the interruption theory.

In other words, Diemschitz' transition from 'about one o'clock' to 'exactly one o'clock', is of fundamental importance to the interruption theory. How unsurprising is that the DN & EN tell us:

The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived.

Also unsurprising, his neighbour at #36 had a similar opinion:

He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart.

Diemschitz and Mortimer obviously talked about the murder. He gave her the idea of interruption, and she gave him the idea of arriving at Berner street, right on one o'clock.

If we return to the title of this thread, "if Schwartz lied", we have to ask ourselves, why would he voluntarily involve himself in a murder investigation by showing police that he was there at the time of Stride's death and thus making himself a suspect. I can only think that if he lied it could have only been to provide himself with an alibi. IMHO he didn't lie. If he didn't lie, and the body was discovered significantly earlier than 1:00, then the odds of BSM being the killer increase and the odds of BSM being JtR decrease.

George, do you have a better reason for believing Schwartz, than "IMHO he didn't lie"?

[Herlock Sholmes]

>>To which servants are you referring?<<

Milly Koravitz Servant 23 Kadish Poland. General Servant

Cheers Dusty, I was sure that I’d heard mention of a servant somewhere.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Kattrup View Post
Joseph Lawende in his testimony refers to fixing the time by the club clock.

Good point Kattrup. I certainly wouldn’t claim 100% certainty on this but I have a strong feeling that a quote has been posted on here mentioning a clock at the IWMES but the person quoted (i thought that it was Eagle) said that he didn’t look at it though. The only thing I’m certain about is that I can’t produce the post (if it exists)

And you can was a lot of time trying to find it.

You do realise that Lawende was talking about the clock in a different club?

Cheers, George

George, I think Kattrup was just pointing out that I might have been mistaken in reading about a clock in the Berner Street club by confusing it with the club near to Mitre Square.