If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

So what you're saying is; Edward Spooner was a policeman?

I can’t even imagine how you came up with that?

[DJA]

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I can’t even imagine how you came up with that?

Which just goes to show that The Standard Model cannot adequately deal with Edward Spooner

[GBinOz]

Off Topic !!!

Hello George,

In Melbourne we've been through four lockdowns, but I'd happily endure many more than go through a bushfire. Hopefully you never come close to one again.

Thanks Dusty,

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Which just goes to show that The Standard Model cannot adequately deal with Edward Spooner

More riddles.

Spooner gave 2 times. One is miles out and so very obviously wrong. The other ties in with what we know to have been true. Conspiracists natural lap up the way out one.

This entire debate about whether there was a cover-up should have gone like this:

”Was there a cover-up?”

”No.”

”I agree, it’s blatantly obvious, let’s move on.”

If only….

[GBinOz]

Was the tobacconists clock a public or private clock? Did it sit behind a window, or face the elements? Has it been definitively ascertained to have been clearly visible to a nighttime passer-by, other than by simply accepting Diemschitz at his word?

It seems very odd to me that Smith would have walked right past that clock - having seen the crowd at the gates from Commercial Road - and not looked at it.

It was a private clock in the window of the Harris Tobacconist. It would be reasonable to assume that it was the Commercial Road window. There is a photo here: https://www.casebook.org/victorian_l....w-berner.html

Diemshitz would have been approaching from the right side of the photo on the opposite side of Commercial Road. I don't know how far inside the window it was situated.

I am instructed by some learned members of this forum that Police Constables probably averted their eyes when they were in danger of viewing a clock on their way to a murder investigation.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

I do recall a quote somewhere that said that there was a clock in the club. I think that it was in connection to Eagle who didn’t look at it. I might be mid-remembering though.

How could the Coroner predict when Smith saw Stride? You’ll have to explain that one please George.

I can empathise with you here. Someone makes a point and you remember seeing something about it but can't find the reference.

That is what the coroner said in his summary. I don't know why. I could only hazard a guess that it was his considered opinion after hearing all the testimony, especially that of Smith.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

2 minutes tops. At a stretch with people moving around as if they were under water.

He didn’t need to ‘search’ for his wife as she was in the kitchen just inside the door. There was also a downstairs room with members in which meant that he only needed to standing in the doorway for 2 seconds to say ‘there’s a body in the yard.’ They go out into the yard when barely a minute would have passed since
he’d arrived back. There was no need for a discussion. He and Koz turn night and go for a Constable, Eagle turns left.

I suddenly have the urge to watch old Benny Hill fast-forward comedy skits.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I suddenly have the urge to watch old Benny Hill fast-forward comedy skits.

You would probably be lynched by a PC mob George.

[GBinOz]

The Star, Oct 1:
The first to find the body was Mr. Diemshitz, steward of the club. Interviewed by a Star reporter, Mr. Diemshitz said:- "I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday I went to Westow-hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual. After I had passed through the gate which had been left open on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground. On looking down I saw the ground was not level, so I took the butt end of my whip and touched what appeared to me in the dark to be a heap of dirt lately placed there, a thing I was not accustomed to see. Not being able to move it, I struck a match and FOUND IT WAS A WOMAN.
First of all I thought it was my wife, but I found her inside the club enjoying herself with the others. I said to some of the members there is a woman lying in the yard, and I think she is drunk. Young Isaacs, a tailor machinist, went to the door and struck a match, and to our horror we saw blood trickling down the gutter almost from the gate to the club. The dance was immediately stopped. I and Isaacs ran out for a policeman, but could not find one after traversing several streets, but in the meantime another man from the Club, Eagle, ran to the Leman-street police-station and fetched two policemen, who arrived about seven minutes after the discovery."

Hmmm, appears that he was running early on his "usual" return time of 1 o'clock. No running to the door in 2 seconds yelling "there's a body in the yard". Seems all pretty casual and unrushed until they see the blood.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

His return time of 1.00 was confirmed by his wife and servants by the way.

[DJA]

Sincerely doubt the IWMES had servants.

[DJA]

That is what the coroner said in his summary. I don't know why. I could only hazard a guess that it was his considered opinion after hearing all the testimony, especially that of Smith.

Cheers, George

Doubt the IWMES could be managed without a clock.

Beware of "The Star" articles.

[Kattrup]

I do recall a quote somewhere that said that there was a clock in the club. I think that it was in connection to Eagle who didn’t look at it. I might be mid-remembering though.

Joseph Lawende in his testimony refers to fixing the time by the club clock.

[Fiver]

The fixed point officer - whose shift finished at 1am - was found at or near his fixed point.
PC Smith proceeded to Berner street from Gower's Walk - a few minutes away - at 1am.
There is no way Diemschitz could have turned into Berner street, when he claimed to.

First of all, the times listed are estimates, unless they specifically reference a watch or clock. Even those that do reference a watch or clock could be several minutes off. One of the top examples if from the Nichols Inquest. Cross and Paul found the body around 3:45am and went in search of a constable. PC Neil found the body after Cross and Paul had walked far enough to be out of sight, also at 3:45am. Several minutes after finding Nichol's body, Cross and Paul found PC Mizen - he thought the time was 3:45am. Clearly, at least one of those people was wrong about the time. All four might have been wrong about the time. But that does not mean any of them were lying.

Morris Eagle testified that he entered Dutfield's Yard about 12:40am. He was in the club at about 1am when the body was discovered. Eagle ran north two blocks on Berner Street, then east 3 blocks on Commercial Road to Grove Street, where he found 2 police officers. (This is about a block east of PC Lamb's fixed point.) Diemshutz, who found the body, and a second club member went along Fairclough Street in search of a constable.

Lewis Diemshutz testified that he entered Dutfield's yard at exactly one o'clock, based on a clock he saw at the corner of Berner and Fairclough. No attempt appears to have been made to determine how accurate that clock was. Diemsutz traveled east three blocks to Fairclough and Grove, met a man [Spooner] on the way, and they both returned to Dufield's Yard. Diemshutz said they arrived shortly before Eagle and the police officers and that the doctors arrived about 20 minutes later.

PC Lamb testified that Eagle found him at about 1am and that he went to Dutfield's Yard with another constable. There were about 30 people in Dutfield's yard at the time.

Edward Spooner testified to seeing Diemshutz on Fairclough and said he started to return with him to Dutfield's Yard about 1am. There were about 15 people in Dutfield's Yard at the time. PC Lamb arrived about 5 minutes later. Spooner is also recorded as saying he reached Dutfield's Yard at 12:35am, but this clearly contradicts his statement that he was two blocks away in front of the Beehive pub at 1am.

James Brown testified to being alerted to the murder around 1am. He supports both Spooner and Diemshutz' accounts of their movements on Fairclough Street, but Brown appears to have mistaken Spooner for a police officer.

Dr Blackwell testified he was alerted by a policeman at 1:10am, sent his assistant Edward Johnson back with the policeman, and the followed and reached Dutfield's Yard at 1:16am. Blackwell had a pocket watch, though we do not know how accurate it was. Blackwell estimated Stride was killed between 12:45am and 12:55am. He said Dr Phillips arrived around 1:35am to 1:45am.

Edward Johnson testified he was alerted by the police officer a few minutes after 1am. He thought he reached Dutfield's Yard around 1:12am to 1:13am and confirmed Dr Backwell's pocket watch said 1:16am when Blackwell arrived.

PC Smith testified that he reached the corner of Commercial Road and Berner Street around 1am on his beat and that by the time he reached Dutfield's Yard two constables were already present. He left around the time Edward Johnson arrived.

The sequence of events seems to be:
* Eagle enters Dutfield's Yard and then the Club.
* Diemshutz enters Dutfield's Yard.
* Eagle heads north on Berner, Diemshutz east on Fairclough looking for a policeman.
* Diemschutz returns to Dutfield's Yard with Spooner.
* Eagle returns to Dutfield's Yard with PC Lamb and another constable.
* PC Smith arrives at Dutfield's Yard.
* Edward Johnson arrives at Dutfield's Yard.
* PC Smith leaves Dutfield's Yard.
* Dr Blackwell arrives at Dutfield's Yard.

Pinning down timing is harder.

* Eagle and Diemshutz' timings agree with each other. They contradict Spooner and Brown, Blackwell and Johnson, PC Lamb, and PC Smith.
* PC Lamb's timing contradicts Eagle and Diemshutz, Spooner and Brown, and PC Smith. They neither support nor contradict Blackwell and Johnson.
* Spooner and Brown's timings agree with each other. They contradict Eagle and Diemshutz, PC Lamb, and PC Smith. They neither support nor contradict Blackwell and Johnson.
* Blackwell and Johnson's timings agree with each other. They contradict Eagle and Diemshutz. They neither support nor contradict PC Lamb, PC Smith, or Spooner and Brown.
* PC Smith's timing contradicts Eagle and Diemshutz, Spooner and Brown, and PC Lamb. They neither support nor contradict and Blackwell and Johnson.