If Schwartz Lied ...

[GBinOz]

Nice attempted side-step.

Diemschutz actually stated that he took his time from Harris’ clock, Smith only ‘had the chance’ of doing so. So we can’t say that he actually did. He might have taken his time from a clock that he’d seen earlier on his beat.

Who is wrong about being there at 1.00? Well it’s very obviously, and provably Smith. How many times do we have to go over this.

Diemschutz finds body at 1.00 - FACT
I disagree

Lamb then gets to the yard with Eagle at approx 1.05 - FACT
Diemshitz disagrees

Smith got to the yard after Lamb - FACT
I agree

Therefore, Smith arrived at the yard after 1.05 and so must have been at the top of Berner Street after 1.00. - FACT
Circular logic - I disagree

These times tie up perfectly with Johnston, Blackwell and Brown.
I disagree - Brown didn't even see Stride. It was the young couple - FM made this clear. Diemshitz thought Johnson was Blackwell and Blackwell was Kaye.


It’s way past time that you conceded this.

…….

And as for why Smith said that he went to Berner Street at 1.00? Probably down to wording in the transcript. It’s noticeable that he mentions his normal route. He was probably asked about time but he said that he couldn’t give an exact time but “I usually went into Berner Street at 1.00 on my normal beat.” It was a near enough estimate. It’s noticeable that no one at the Inquest said “hold on, Diemschutz said he found the body at 1.00!” It wasn’t an issue.

“I usually went into Berner Street at 1.00 on my normal beat.” - If you change "beat" to "round" you have what Diemshitz told EVERY reporter on 1 October 1888.... except the reporter he told that he arrived at the yard "as the clock struck one".

Read the press reports of the interviews with Diemshitz by the Times, the Daily News and the Echo on 1 October. They are a mish mash of contradictions and obvious errors. In addition to the ones listed by NBFN, here are a few more:

He entered the club by the side door higher up the court, and informed those in the concert-room upstairs that something had happened in the yard. A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up. The body was still warm, and the clothes enveloping it were wet from the recent rain. Both men ran off without delay to find a policeman.

Diemshitz: "When the first doctor arrived, he undid the buttons of her dress at the neck. He also put his hand on her bosom, and said she was quite warm." This was Johnson, not Blackwell.

Blackwell to Coroner: The clothes were not wet with rain.

One of them was sent for a doctor. Dr. Phillips, the police surgeon, of Spital-square, and Dr. Kaye, of Blackwall, both came.

Several members were on the ground floor, and I told them there was a woman, but I could not tell them whether she was drunk or dead. I got a candle, and at once went into the yard, where I saw a quantity of blood near the body. I did not touch the body.

Diemschitz being then asked to describe the body as well as he could, said: "In my opinion the woman was about 27 or 28 years old. Her skin and complexion were fair. (This is not correct, according to the latest accounts that we have received, but the man was evidently too frightened at the time to be able to remember.)

And there it is - too frightened at the time to remember.

Herlock - Nice try, but I can't let you get away with starting your clock at 1:00 with Diemshitz finding the body. All the inquest statements having him reaching Berner St at that time. Before he finds the body he has to drive down Berner St, turn into the yard, prod about with his whip, alight from the cart and light a match. Then he has to run inside searching for his wife, alert club members on both floors, return with Kozebrodski, light another match and lift up the body.

What time is your clock showing at this point?

Then he told the Morning Advertiser that Kodebrodski and he "both ran off without delay to find a policeman, and at the same time other members of the club, who had by this found their way into the court, went off with the same object in different directions. The search was for some time fruitless. At last, however, after a considerable delay, a constable, 252 H, was found in Commercial road".

IMHO, Diemshitz was a confused and totally unreliable witness who tidied up his story for the inquest. He had no need at all to look at the clock (for which he gave 2 different locations) to determine the time because as far as he was concerned it was his "usual" time. For Smith and Lamb, given the circumstances, there was an imperative to look at the clock. It wouldn't need to be cited as it would have been taken for granted that it would have been a dereliction of duty for them to fail to do so. As far as his time not being challenged at the inquest, it was just another issue in a sea of contradictions.

I agree that these issues have been gone over to many times, and accept that those who disagree with my opinions are as unlikey to change their minds as I am, unless of course I see dramatic evidence to persuade me otherwise. I have so far seemed to have sustained a degree of civility with those with whom I disagree and I hope that will continue. I have been researching JtR since the 1970's and joined the forum for an amical and non-combative exchange of ideas. I'm not proposing any plot and don't know the content of any plots or cospiracies on this subject that may be being promoted.
Enough said.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock - Nice try, but I can't let you get away with starting your clock at 1:00 with Diemshitz finding the body. All the inquest statements having him reaching Berner St at that time. Before he finds the body he has to drive down Berner St, turn into the yard, prod about with his whip, alight from the cart and light a match. Then he has to run inside searching for his wife, alert club members on both floors, return with Kozebrodski, light another match and lift up the body.

Firstly, there’s no need to add the ‘running inside’ part unless you want to fall into NBFN’s habit of adding bits to improve the point. 1.00 was when he arrived at the yard and saw the body.

Secondly, FrankO dealt with this time issue a while ago. There was no one checking a clock when Diemschutz arrived at the yard but he saw the clock at the top of the road which said 1.00. Frank calculated using average times that he could have got from the clock to the yard in just under a minute so unless we are nitpicking to an entirely unrealistic level Louis Diemschutz would certainly have expected to have got to the yard whilst it was still 1.00 (or within a minute.) Of course, if he’d been ridiculously accurate then he might have considered that as he saw the clock at 1.00 it might actually have been 1.00 +45 seconds in which case when he arrived at the body it might actually have been 1.01 but are we really going there?

All that we need to know is that Diemschutz saw the clock, didn’t suffer from a visual impairment and was capable of telling the time. It’s that simple unless we simply assume that there was a cover-up and that he lied (for which there is very obviously zero evidence apart from things invented.)

1.00 is the time that the body was discovered. There is no argument against this. Yes, in reality the clock might actually have ticked onto 1.01, but that changes nothing.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Read the press reports of the interviews with Diemshitz by the Times, the Daily News and the Echo on 1 October. They are a mish mash of contradictions and obvious errors

Exactly.

So why is there an ongoing and pointless effort to disprove one by quoting another?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m losing interest in this case again. It’s like being down a rabbit-hole.

[erobitha]

Welcome to my world.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We have Diemschutz wife, Morris Eagle and Gileman who back up his 1.00 discovery time.

So what time did Brown hear Diemschutz and Koz shouting for the police? He went to fetch his supper at 12.45 remember.

“I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of “Police” and “Murder.” That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.”

Well waddya know. Just after 1.00 (as Diemschutz said) - another

So that 1.00 in the bank.

Diemschutz doesn’t go far and returns with Spooner around 1.03.

Eagle then returns with Lamb probably around 1.05/1.06

Spooner estimates that he’d been in the yard 5 minutes when Lamb arrived. He’s out by a couple of minutes or so. Under the circumstances absolutely no issue there.

Smith arrived just after. Maybe even less than a minute later.

This is what happened. If we ditch unfair nitpicking there is no issue.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why, when we are discussing differing quotes as to whether Diemschutz pony collided with the body, you post a quote where there’s no mention of any such collision.

You questioned the validity of the Star report, which mentioned an approximate arrival time, and a donkey. So I showed you another report that mentioned 3 relevant things - the approximate arrival time, the species of animal pulling the cart, and the tendency of that animal to pull to the left, when entering the yard.

The only way the cart could have contacted the body, is for the body to have been laying across the passage, to some extent. The Star, Oct 1:

The precise spot where the woman was found lying is marked by a small splash of blood. She lay on her back, her head was near the grating of the cellar, and her body stretched across the passage. There is a severe bruise on the cheek of the unfortunate woman, which may be explained by the theory that the throat was cut while she was standing, and the body allowed to fall heavily upon its side, bringing the cheek into contact with a stone that abuts from the wall just at this point.

The Times, Oct 3:

Lamb: I scarcely could see her boots. She looked as if she had been laid quietly down. Her clothes were not in the least rumpled.
Lamb: When I got there I had the gates shut.
Baxter: But did not the feet of the deceased touch the gate?
Lamb: No; they went just behind it, and I was able to close the gates without disturbing the body.

Seems like the body was moved and tidied up a bit, although there was no evidence for the cart having contacted the victim.

This is akin to your ‘whip’ nonsense. Derided by all.

Its a non-issue.

It's obvious what happened. Diemschitz realized his collision story had a major flaw - the victim would show no physical signs of this. So he changed to the whip and prod story. Still nonsense, of course, but not as easy to disprove.

[GBinOz]

Firstly, there’s no need to add the ‘running inside’ part unless you want to fall into NBFN’s habit of adding bits to improve the point. 1.00 was when he arrived at the yard and saw the body.

Secondly, FrankO dealt with this time issue a while ago. There was no one checking a clock when Diemschutz arrived at the yard but he saw the clock at the top of the road which said 1.00. Frank calculated using average times that he could have got from the clock to the yard in just under a minute so unless we are nitpicking to an entirely unrealistic level Louis Diemschutz would certainly have expected to have got to the yard whilst it was still 1.00 (or within a minute.) Of course, if he’d been ridiculously accurate then he might have considered that as he saw the clock at 1.00 it might actually have been 1.00 +45 seconds in which case when he arrived at the body it might actually have been 1.01 but are we really going there?

All that we need to know is that Diemschutz saw the clock, didn’t suffer from a visual impairment and was capable of telling the time. It’s that simple unless we simply assume that there was a cover-up and that he lied (for which there is very obviously zero evidence apart from things invented.)

1.00 is the time that the body was discovered. There is no argument against this. Yes, in reality the clock might actually have ticked onto 1.01, but that changes nothing.

It seems we have a misunderstanding. You seem to be suggesting that he found the body when the horse shied. I was marking the event of finding the body as when it was determined that Stride was dead. Up until then Diemshitz was saying that he wasn't sure that she wasn't just drunk. So you're not suggesting that to drive down Berner St, turn into the yard, prod about with his whip, alight from the cart and light a match, shift the pony up near the door, run inside searching for his wife, alert club members on both floors, return with Kozebrodski, light another match and lift up the body took less than a minute?

That was my previous question.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

We have Diemschutz wife, Morris Eagle and Gileman who back up his 1.00 discovery time.

On the other hand, Spooner was alerted to the search for police at around 12:55, placing Diemschitz' arrival a few minutes prior. Herschburg was alerted to the incident at about 12:45. Both men either heard or new someone who had heard a whistle, so apparently Whistleman knew of the incident well before 1am.

So what time did Brown hear Diemschutz and Koz shouting for the police? He went to fetch his supper at 12.45 remember.

“I had nearly finished my supper when I heard screams of “Police” and “Murder.” That was about a quarter of an hour after I got in.”

Well waddya know. Just after 1.00 (as Diemschutz said) - another

Another thumbs down for Schwartz.

So that 1.00 in the bank.

That's about 1.00 in the bank, but probably more like 12:55, given a "very reasonable" margin of error. That is for Diemschitz' arrival, yet the body was probably discovered before then. There is evidence the body was shifted - presumably to make way for the cart, which was never in the way - and there are clues in Arbeter Fraint that it were actually Kozebrodski who was the discoverer. Or maybe it was Krantz...

Harry Reeve - The Boxer, The Ripper and The Mutiny in France (monocledmutineer.co.uk):

Looking over the Hoover Institute’s Okhrana (Russian secret service) records I did find one entry on Ripper witness (and Arbeter Fraint editor) Jacob Rombro in Incoming Dispatches, May 7th 1891. It seems Rombro had entered the yard on Berner Street and observed Elizabeth Stride’s body. He was known as Philip Krantz and testified at Stride’s Inquest.

Diemschutz doesn’t go far and returns with Spooner around 1.03.

Eagle then returns with Lamb probably around 1.05/1.06

Spooner estimates that he’d been in the yard 5 minutes when Lamb arrived. He’s out by a couple of minutes or so. Under the circumstances absolutely no issue there.

Smith arrived just after. Maybe even less than a minute later.

Smith walked down Berner street at beat pace. Lamb ran down it. Smith did not see Lamb running. Also, Smith did not see 426H running around to the doctors surgery, at the top of Batty street...

About one o’clock I saw a large crowd of people outside the gate of No. 40. I did not notice any disturbance, and heard no cries of "Police." There were two policemen there. I do not remember passing anyone on my way down Berner-street.

So who were the two policeman?

When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H.

Lamb was 252H, and 12HR was PC Albert Collins. Did Collins arrive within the 1 minute gap between Lamb + Ayliffe, and Smith? How was Collins alerted to the incident, and able to arrive so quickly? Lamb did not blow his whistle immediately...

As I was examining the body some crowded round. I begged them to keep back, and told them they might get some of the blood on their clothing, and by that means get themselves into trouble. I then blew my whistle.

James Brown:

When I had nearly finished my supper I heard screams of "Murder" and "Police." This was a quarter of an hour after I had got home. I did not look at any clock at the chandler's shop. I arrived home first at ten minutes past twelve o'clock, and I believe it was not raining then.

When I heard screams I opened my window, but could not see anybody. The cries were of moving people going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian- street, and a man called him to Berner-street.

Spooner said he had been at the Fairclough and Christian street intersection, since about 12:30. He said Mr Harris - who he met on the way to the yard - had heard a whistle. He could see the victim on entering the yard, without the aid of a candle. He attended to the victim. He helped Lamb close the gates, after standing by the body for a few minutes. He seems to have been allowed to leave early. He gave no indication that his alleged female companion accompanied him to the yard. He was asked by the coroner, for his opinion on the possibility of the body having been moved. What is the truth about Edward Spooner?

This is what happened. If we ditch unfair nitpicking there is no issue.

Yours is more or less the accepted story.

[GBinOz]

Much has been made of Diemshitz being the only one to have stated he saw a clock (not initially, but afterwards at the inquest), apart from Blackwell who said he looked at his pocketwatch - and Brown who said he didn't look at the chandler's clock. The proposition is that therefore, Diemshitz is right, as are all those who support him. Of course those whose testimony don't support him must be discarded as guesswork......seriously?

Can anyone point to a statement by any of the other witnesses that refers to a clock?

What is it when one holds up as true non clocked based testimony that suits their argument and dismisses out of hand non clocked based testimony that contradicts their argument?......Oh yeah....cognitive bias.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Did anyone else think, when they read Schwartz's description of Pipeman, could this be Tumbelty?

Thiis is from The Echo on 1 October:

THE MYSTERIOUS AMERICAN.
A diminutive individual appeared upon the scene, and explained that the deputy was "not up yet." He, however, offered any information I might require. After repeated questioning he stated that yesterday a tall dark man, wearing an American hat, took a bed in the house. He was in the house all day, associated with the other lodgers, entered into their various amusements, but somehow seemed to be rather reserved, and, at times, absent-minded. Towards evening he commenced conversing about the latest horrors in the East-end. He entered very vigorously into the details as supplied by the Sunday papers, and expressed an opinion that the police would never capture the murderer, who would remain at large until he gave himself up.

"Oh," said he, "he's a lot too 'cute for these London detectives."

The "deputy's" attention was attracted to this mysterious individual by the singular amount of excitement he displayed while discoursing upon the subject. There were about twelve men in the room- a long, scrupulously clean, though somewhat scantily furnished, apartment. Each one seemed afraid of the individual, and ultimately the police were summoned, and the luckless American was marched off in custody as a "suspect."

Cheers, George

[DJA]

Nah.

Publican having a knockoff smoke.

Where in Oz are you?

[Abby Normal]

Did anyone else think, when they read Schwartz's description of Pipeman, could this be Tumbelty?

Thiis is from The Echo on 1 October:

THE MYSTERIOUS AMERICAN.
A diminutive individual appeared upon the scene, and explained that the deputy was "not up yet." He, however, offered any information I might require. After repeated questioning he stated that yesterday a tall dark man, wearing an American hat, took a bed in the house. He was in the house all day, associated with the other lodgers, entered into their various amusements, but somehow seemed to be rather reserved, and, at times, absent-minded. Towards evening he commenced conversing about the latest horrors in the East-end. He entered very vigorously into the details as supplied by the Sunday papers, and expressed an opinion that the police would never capture the murderer, who would remain at large until he gave himself up.

"Oh," said he, "he's a lot too 'cute for these London detectives."

The "deputy's" attention was attracted to this mysterious individual by the singular amount of excitement he displayed while discoursing upon the subject. There were about twelve men in the room- a long, scrupulously clean, though somewhat scantily furnished, apartment. Each one seemed afraid of the individual, and ultimately the police were summoned, and the luckless American was marched off in custody as a "suspect."

Cheers, George

lol. no. but get this. tumblety was friends with his fellow hair dresser george chapman aka severin klosowski. they met in the east end as both were quack doctors. dr t was not the type to get his hands dirty but chapman was. abberline had it right all along it was jack the ripper at last only dr t was paying chapman to do his dirty work. suck it.

[drstrange169]

>>I’m losing interest in this case again. It’s like being down a rabbit-hole.<<

Yes, some people are so worried that the Harris clock showed 1:00 a.m. that they need to come up with ever increasingly complicated scenarios, rather than understanding time was fluid in the Victorian East End. There was no such thing as synchronised time. One only need do a cursory search into timekeeping in the 1880's to understand this, but sadly it seems some have no will to research beyond this site. They can only see through the lens of 21 Century's time obsession.

It's the same old story with quotes, the Rubenhold effect, newspaper articles can't be trusted, until they say something they like, then they are to be taken as word for word literal.

There's no new insights, nothing we haven't read people propose a thousand times before. Just argument for arguments sake.

[GBinOz]

Here's a bizarre report in The Times on October 1 that should warm the heart of some new conspiracy theorists:

Conflicting statements are made as to the way in which the body was found, but according to one account a lad first made the discovery and gave information to a man named Costa, who proceeded to the spot, where almost immediately afterwards a constable arrived. The body was then removed to No. 40, Berner-street, which is very near to the now notorious Hanbury-street. These premises are occupied by the International Workmen's Club.

Here's the link:https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881001.html
Seriously....I'm not making this up!

Cheers, George