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  • Originally posted by FrankO View Post

    I think they may have turned either corner for some meters, but according to Spooner, it seems that they didn't:
    "They ran as far as Grove-street, and then turned back."
    Spooner is perhaps not the most reliable of witnesses.
    However, even if they only went as far as Grove street, before turning back, it begs two questions. The first is unanswerable, the second may not be ...

    one: Why didn't LD & IK continue running up along Grove street, to Commercial Road? What was the point of doubling-back when they did?

    two: Why didn't Ayliffe hear the cries for police? These sounds should have travelled up Grove street, to his station.

    Perhaps Ayliffe just wasn't quite close enough to hear the cries, unlike Eagle when in the yard ...

    When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street ...

    So did Eagle at that point hang around, or take off immediately because he couldn't stand the sight of blood?
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

      Eagle in the Times of 2 October:

      I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, and struck a match. ... Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police.

      So let's put it together. The search parties seem to have been:

      Comm. Road: Diemschitz & Jacobs
      Grove Street: Eagle & Kozebrodski

      So who is Jacobs?

      Or maybe it was:

      Comm. Road: Diemschitz & Isaacs
      Grove Street: Eagle & Jacobs

      I get the feeling Eagle was a little confused - both at the time, and when recalling events.
      Eagle had been singing, and having a rare old time. Diemschitz had come from work. I think the second list is probably the correct one.
      So perhaps this would have been more accurate ...

      When I got outside I saw Isaacs and Diemschitz going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street ...

      Another member, named Isaac Jacobs, was with me at the time.
      Ok, I’m confused

      Why have you got Diemschutz in the Commercial Road search party?
      Regards

      Herlock



      “All conspiracy theories are the product of the subconscious attempt of an ignorant yet creative mind to counteract the fear of the unknown with the tales of fantasy.” Abhijit Naskar.

      “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason - they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple with their wingnut delusions.” Mick Herron.

      ”The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.” Shannon L. Alder.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        Ok, I’m confused

        Why have you got Diemschutz in the Commercial Road search party?
        Edited. Sorry! Trying to multitask and not quite succeeding
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

          I'm sure it isn't the first time this has been pointed out. It felt like my turn.
          When at home Ill find the copy that I got from Lynn Cates, who had that paper translated himself. I notice that people still use Issac Kozebrodski in their comments about Diemshitz and who accompanied him despite the fact that Issac K has been directly quoted saying he went out at the request of the steward or some other member. In the same way that focussing on finding the Joe that Mary was seeing maybe focussing on who Issac[s] actually was.
          Last edited by Michael W Richards; 05-18-2021, 11:50 AM.
          Michael Richards

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

            Yah, that's what I was thinking, they were all singing songs, and so forth, which made me suspect there were a few arms bent that night, but I've never seen it stated anywhere that there was beer or booze available at the club. I would not be surprised, but if they were into their cups a bit, which I suspect they were, then the margin of error will rather expand for time estimations and so forth. Morning can appear without warning for those too busy with beer to monitor the time.

            - Jeff
            A story about a bunch of men singing and hanging around upstairs at 12:30am that wouldnt involve booze? Not likely. The men seen about that club late at night were described as "low" men by the neighbors, I think late nights, rowdiness and drink might be a reason for that kind of characterization.

            These "private" clubs offered drinks after the pubs had closed, part of their popularity Im sure.
            Michael Richards

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

              When at home Ill find the copy that I got from Lynn Cates, who had that paper translated himself.
              No need. Lynn posted the translation on this very site, which is where I copied it from;

              https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-fraint-s-take

              Comment


              • Oops...duplicate post

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                  Actually it doesn't.

                  "At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body."
                  I can't believe Michael is still having difficulty with reconciling 'discovered' with 'first to notice'.

                  His conspiracy goggles need a good wipe.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by caz View Post

                    I can't believe Michael is still having difficulty with reconciling 'discovered' with 'first to notice'.

                    His conspiracy goggles need a good wipe.

                    Love,

                    Caz
                    X
                    Perhaps his private copy of Lynn's translation differs from the posted version?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                      The AF said the murder occurred around 12:45 and the body was found around 1am. This has been shown to you before.
                      Must be three or four times now, Fiver. I can't fathom why Michael is still unable or unwilling to grasp this.

                      Love,

                      Caz
                      X
                      "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                        Perhaps his private copy of Lynn's translation differs from the posted version?
                        Well I'm sure Michael will confirm this if you are right, Josh, to spare his blushes.

                        Love,

                        Caz
                        X
                        "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                          No doubt you both read the quote, carefully.

                          Charles Letchford, living at 30, Berners-street says: "I passed through the street at half-past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at 10 minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by. I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row."
                          I was merely interpreting this from Letchford's perspective, which was what I thought you wanted me to do. He expressed no doubts about what he had heard, so there was no call for me to comment on whether he could have been lying or mistaken. I leave that kind of thing to Michael, and he duly jumped in to oblige.




                          "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by caz View Post

                            I can't believe Michael is still having difficulty with reconciling 'discovered' with 'first to notice'.

                            His conspiracy goggles need a good wipe.

                            Love,

                            Caz
                            X
                            Regards

                            Herlock



                            “All conspiracy theories are the product of the subconscious attempt of an ignorant yet creative mind to counteract the fear of the unknown with the tales of fantasy.” Abhijit Naskar.

                            “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason - they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple with their wingnut delusions.” Mick Herron.

                            ”The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.” Shannon L. Alder.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by caz View Post
                              I was merely interpreting this from Letchford's perspective, which was what I thought you wanted me to do. He expressed no doubts about what he had heard, so there was no call for me to comment on whether he could have been lying or mistaken. I leave that kind of thing to Michael, and he duly jumped in to oblige.
                              Okay fine. Other than the issue of the number whistlers he may have heard or been referring to, I think there could be a little bit more to Charles Letchford, than currently supposed.
                              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                              Comment


                              • .
                                At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body
                                Could this really be any clearer?
                                Regards

                                Herlock



                                “All conspiracy theories are the product of the subconscious attempt of an ignorant yet creative mind to counteract the fear of the unknown with the tales of fantasy.” Abhijit Naskar.

                                “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason - they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple with their wingnut delusions.” Mick Herron.

                                ”The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.” Shannon L. Alder.

                                Comment

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