If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Mike,

As to the "second whistle blower", I think that the adrenaline and general confusion of seeing a woman with her throat deeply cut and all the blood are responsible for it. Seeing that there's no other evidence of a whistle being blown than that of Lamb and that there wasn't any reason for a whistle to have been blown before Lamb did that, I think that Spooner and Heshburg replaced the yelling of "Police" and "Murder" of those running for the police for the whistle that they had also heard, but just not at that moment. In the case of Mr. Harris, who followed Spooner to the yard, Diemshutz & Kozebrodski had just past Tiger Bay (Brunswick Street?), running and shouting for the police. The same could be true of Abraham Heshburg, but in this case it was Eagle who past his house running & shouting "Police".

As for Eagle stating that "we could not find one at first", I think that would be perfectly explained by him turning left on the top of Berner Street and turning back after having reached Backchurch Lane, and Kozebrodski joining him after his south-bound search at the intersection of Berner & Commercial Street. This would not only explain that Kozebrodski said he first went to look for a PC via Fairclough to Grove Street and afterwards joined Eagle where they found 2 PC's, but it would also have been perfectly natural for Kozebrodski to inform Eagle when he joined him, that they hadn't been able to find a PC in the direction they took. Which, in turn, would explain why Eagle stated "We could not find one at first,..."

Hi Frank,

I agree. Adrenalin and confusion can certainly cause these kinds of discrepancies when recalling events.

Although Michael likes to mention what Fanny didn’t see or hear he doesn’t appear to be bothered that Brown heard them yelling for the police at around 1.00 and no one heard any such thing at 12.35/12.40?

Strange that.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

As to the "second whistle blower", I think that the adrenaline and general confusion of seeing a woman with her throat deeply cut and all the blood are responsible for it. Seeing that there's no other evidence of a whistle being blown than that of Lamb and that there wasn't any reason for a whistle to have been blown before Lamb did that, I think that Spooner and Heshburg replaced the yelling of "Police" and "Murder" of those running for the police for the whistle that they had also heard, but just not at that moment. In the case of Mr. Harris, who followed Spooner to the yard, Diemshutz & Kozebrodski had just past Tiger Bay (Brunswick Street?), running and shouting for the police. The same could be true of Abraham Heshburg, but in this case it was Eagle who past his house running & shouting "Police".

As for Eagle stating that "we could not find one at first", I think that would be perfectly explained by him turning left on the top of Berner Street and turning back after having reached Backchurch Lane, and Kozebrodski joining him after his south-bound search at the intersection of Berner & Commercial Street. This would not only explain that Kozebrodski said he first went to look for a PC via Fairclough to Grove Street and afterwards joined Eagle where they found 2 PC's, but it would also have been perfectly natural for Kozebrodski to inform Eagle when he joined him, that they hadn't been able to find a PC in the direction they took. Which, in turn, would explain why Eagle stated "We could not find one at first,..."

I notice that youve incorporated Issacs own account...well done. You can consider yourself among the accurate minority on that point. There are many points "being made" here that are provably not accurate...so, bravo.

[Michael W Richards]

He hears a commotion going on in the yard, and hears a whistle being blown more than once, but takes no notice for the reasons stated. So he doesn't actually see what is causing the commotion or who is blowing the whistle, but recognises it as a police whistle.

Clear enough?

What he perceived was a police whistle....although I know you tend to categorize something in a manner that fits with what you espouse.

[Michael W Richards]

The AF has Diemshutz discovering the body at about 1 am. Adding 10 minutes to that would take the time to around 1:10 for the arrival of Lamb & Ayliffe. But that doesn’t go with the fact that Eagle also arrived around 1:10 at the Leman Street police station to alert Inspector Pinhorn. So, one of AF claims was, in fact, false, Andrew.

Actually the AF says the body was discovered around 15 minutes to 1.

[FrankO]

Although Michael likes to mention what Fanny didn’t see or hear he doesn’t appear to be bothered that Brown heard them yelling for the police at around 1.00 and no one heard any such thing at 12.35/12.40?

Don't forget William Marshall, who stated that he heard the shouting just after one o'clock (so, more precise than Brown).

Strange that.

Indeed Mike, one among quite a few oddities...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes Frank, it’s sad when distortions and selective omissions are resorted to simply to shoehorn a non-starter theory into place. A theory that everyone knows is dead and buried.

[Joshua Rogan]

Actually the AF says the body was discovered around 15 minutes to 1.

Actually it doesn't.

"At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body."

[FrankO]

Actually it doesn't.

"At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body."

You've beaten me to it, Joshua - thanks!

[JeffHamm]

Hi Frank,

I agree. Adrenalin and confusion can certainly cause these kinds of discrepancies when recalling events.

Although Michael likes to mention what Fanny didn’t see or hear he doesn’t appear to be bothered that Brown heard them yelling for the police at around 1.00 and no one heard any such thing at 12.35/12.40?

Strange that.

I don't know if this is the case, but would it not be probable that the club members were also having a few pints after their meeting? That too would have an impact upon recall of events and estimations of timings, etc. Do we know for sure, one way or the other, if it was a dry club or not?

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

You've beaten me to it, Joshua - thanks!

I'm sure it isn't the first time this has been pointed out. It felt like my turn.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't know if this is the case, but would it not be probable that the club members were also having a few pints after their meeting? That too would have an impact upon recall of events and estimations of timings, etc. Do we know for sure, one way or the other, if it was a dry club or not?

- Jeff

That’s another good point Jeff. I don’t know if alcohol was available at the club though? I’m wondering if anyone knows this?

[Fiver]

Actually the AF says the body was discovered around 15 minutes to 1.

The AF said the murder occurred around 12:45 and the body was found around 1am. This has been shown to you before.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Or might she have have heard that Diemschutz had discovered the body at 1.00 while she was at the yard? She’d also heard the horse and cart of course. I’d suggest that this is the likeliest way that she got her time.

That could mean she were influenced by Diemschitz, yet I doubt the conversation in the yard got any more precise than Fanny saying she locked up shortly before one o'clock. Probably no references to the baker's clock.
Also, Fanny may have supposed that the commotion she heard, came very soon after the discovery. Did she know that Louis had been up to Grove street and back?

So we have to go back to the question; was there a significant amount of time between Fanny's lockup and the arrival of Louis, pony & cart? Popular opinion seems to be that there was something like a 4 minute gap. Walter Dew thought the events were almost simultaneous. So did Fanny give any indication? Possibly ...

There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates.
...
He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart.

The first line does not necessarily close the gap to a negligible amount of time, but why must he have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart? Why not escape after she locks up, but before Louis arrives? Is it because Walter Dew was right, and the moderns are wrong?

We don’t know if she owned a clock or not of course but she came up with her 12.45 time for Smith’s passing but she maybe have misjudged the length of time from hearing Smith to her arrival at the yard? When interviewed it would only have been a case of mistaking 30 minutes previously for 20 minutes which a stretch of the imagination IMO. As we’ve already said the 5 minutes before hearing the commotion was probably a case of the reporter doing his sums.

I don't think it would be far-fetched to suggest that the Mortimer household contained a clock. Fanny seems fairly confident in what she says. On the other hand, we don't know the truth.

We have to stress that no one hears any commotion before one except for Hoschberg hearing the whistle.

That's true, yet oddly, no one estimates hearing it significantly after one. I would suppose that the estimates would cluster either side of a few minutes past one, but that is not the case.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The whistle heard by the guy that Spooner ran into (I can’t recall his name) couldn’t on reflection have been Lamb because Spooner got to the yard 5 minutes before he did. So the second whistle is one that we have no explanation for unless there was an unconnected incident somewhere else?

Did Mr Harris hear the first whistle, or the second?

If Eagle first turned left into Commercial Road but couldn’t find a Constable might that have been because an officer or officers who might have been expected to have been found were answering the whistle call of a fellow officer? There’s no mention of any ‘incident’ of course but it might explain any question as to why Eagle “…could not find one at first,?”

That seems reasonable, but remember that Frank pointed out that Eagle's address, 4 New Road, was pretty close to the Commercial road/Grove street fixed point station.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As for Eagle stating that "we could not find one at first", I think that would be perfectly explained by him turning left on the top of Berner Street and turning back after having reached Backchurch Lane, and Kozebrodski joining him after his south-bound search at the intersection of Berner & Commercial Street. This would not only explain that Kozebrodski said he first went to look for a PC via Fairclough to Grove Street and afterwards joined Eagle where they found 2 PC's, but it would also have been perfectly natural for Kozebrodski to inform Eagle when he joined him, that they hadn't been able to find a PC in the direction they took. Which, in turn, would explain why Eagle stated "We could not find one at first,..."

If Kozebrodski joined Eagle at the intersection of Berner street and Comm. Rd, then aren't the searches effectively sequential?
In that scenario we can forget about Eagle entirely, in regards to overall timing. Its all down to Koz doing the Grove street search, and then the Comm. Rd search. He just happens to be with Eagle when they find the constables.
Yet Eagle says ...

... I ran for the police. Another man went for them at the same time. We could not find one at first ...

Who was the other man?

I had been there about 20 minutes when the man I mentioned-Gigelmann-came and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, struck a match, and saw a woman lying on the ground near the gates with a lot of blood near her. ... When I saw the blood I was very much excited. ... I went for the police, and two constables returned with me.

Who is Gigelmann?

Arberter Fraint: Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!”

Does Gigelmann = Gilyarovsky = Kozebrodski ?