If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Wouldn't it have been much easier (and independent of anybody else) if they'd just turned Stride on her back, lifted her skirts and moved/opened her legs somewhat?

According to a recent poll, 19 of 20 Casebookers' say that we cannot expect to have seen evidence of interruption.
On that basis, I'd say we cannot expect members of the club to suppose that manufacturing evidence of interruption, to have been beneficial to their interests.

[Herlock Sholmes]

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Or both. 1am is too late, and 10 minutes is too long.
Reducing each by 5 minutes, results in much more realistic numbers

But Diemschutz saw a clock so we can eliminate error leaving us with truth or a lie. I see absolutely no reason for a lie. I’m 100% on Diemschutz driving into that yard at 1.00 (or, taking into consideration that he probably wouldn’t have paid attention to the second hand of the clock, 1.01.

[FrankO]

According to a recent poll, 19 of 20 Casebookers' say that we cannot expect to have seen evidence of interruption.
On that basis, I'd say we cannot expect members of the club to suppose that manufacturing evidence of interruption, to have been beneficial to their interests.

This reaction seriously cracked me up, Andrew! I would recommend you for the "Best Baloney Answer" award!

But, in case you meant it seriously...

What would you consider evidence of interruption then, in case it was the Ripper and he had gone further than just the cut throat?

And...

You're suggestion requires Diemshutz to have known that Mortimer went back inside close to or at 12:55. How would he have known that, if he would not arrive for another 5 minutes or so? Aahh, because he heard her say it while they were both in the yard! But, then, why didn't she say this to the journalists she spoke to?

[FrankO]

I don't think that is correct. I think the searches were concurrent, not sequential.

That would make the search only shorter... Eagle could even have been back in the yard with Lamb within 2 minutes.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But Diemschutz saw a clock so we can eliminate error leaving us with truth or a lie. I see absolutely no reason for a lie.

I think he did lie, but it was not a big one. Just a convenient bit of rounding-up.
Very early on the Sunday, he was saying something a little different to his later remarks ...

I have been steward of the International Club for six or seven years; I am also a traveller in common jewellery. I went yesterday to Weston Hill market, a place I usually visit on Saturdays, and I got back about one o'clock this morning.

That is from a statement by Louis, in the Irish Times. That is the same paper that was talking to Abraham Herschberg, at around 6am.

In the Echo, Oct 1 (Monday), the story has changed a little ...

I live at 40, Berner-street, and am steward to the Club. On Saturday I left home at 11.30 in the morning, and returned home at exactly one a.m. on Sunday morning.

That might have been captured by the reporter who spoke to Wess, on Sunday afternoon.

So it's just a little lie, but it could have a big flow-on effect to other events.
And if it were a lie, a big issue becomes; what colour was it - white, or schwartz? (sorry, couldn't resist)

I’m 100% on Diemschutz driving into that yard at 1.00 (or, taking into consideration that he probably wouldn’t have paid attention to the second hand of the clock, 1.01.

If the murder occurred shortly after a quarter to one, you would expect a lot of blood to be evident, by the time she is discovered.

Mr D: A member named Isaacs went down into the yard with me, and we struck a match. We saw blood right from the gate up the yard.

Mrs D: I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed.

So it's not looking good for BS Man. However, what did Spooner see on his arrival...?

When the man struck the match I bent down and lifted up the chin of the deceased. The chin was just warm. The blood was still flowing from the throat, which was cut.

Still flowing 15 minutes after she died?
Yet on the other hand, all that blood loss does not fit too easily with interruption due to Diemschitz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

This reaction seriously cracked me up, Andrew! I would recommend you for the "Best Baloney Answer" award!

Thought you might like it, but I'm hoping to be nominated for best take the p!$$ award too

But, in case you meant it seriously...

What would you consider evidence of interruption then, in case it was the Ripper and he had gone further than just the cut throat?

I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that has ten inches of cold steel in her.'

And...

You're suggestion requires Diemshutz to have known that Mortimer went back inside close to or at 12:55. How would he have known that, if he would not arrive for another 5 minutes or so? Aahh, because he heard her say it while they were both in the yard!

If not then, before midday. It seems fairly obvious that Mrs M and Mr D talked about the situation together. Probably Mrs D too.

Fanny: I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart.

Not hard to see where she got that idea.

But, then, why didn't she say this to the journalists she spoke to?

Well given the 'important statement' report, arguably she did. Although it would be fair to say that that report is unsafe to use as evidence.

For Fanny, the relevant period is 12:30-1:00, even though she locked up a few minutes prior.
Why? Because of the time she rushes outside, after hearing the commotion ...

It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

That is fairly precise, which perhaps indicates that she checked the time when preparing to go to bed.
It also gives us a fair idea of when the discovery really occurred. Even more so when considering this ...

Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

Yet apparently no police. Spooner seems to have been there, checking the wound.
So it would seem that Louis and Isaacs are back from Grove street, and Morris is still searching, or just about to return with the constables.

So she probably did not explicitly say that she locked up about 12:55-56, but we can work out reasonably well what she means by 'nearly the whole time between half-past 12 and 1 o'clock'.

We can also work out what this means ...

... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road.

Does that refer to a previous period on her doorstep, or previous to locking up? Apparently almost everyone believes the later - she only saw one man, in total.
Really?

Evening News: Was the street quiet at the time?

Fanny: Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That would make the search only shorter... Eagle could even have been back in the yard with Lamb within 2 minutes.

In theory, yes. However, it seems as though the searching, while not quite one party going out after another returns unsuccessful, was a bit staggered in time, and Eagle admits his search was not a particularly fast and efficient process ...

I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police. Another man went for them at the same time. We could not find one at first, but when we got to the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, I found two constables, and I told them there was a woman murdered in Berner-street.

As you know, this should have taken no more time or even less, than the Fairclough to Grove street search (that also paused to pick up Spooner), but that seems not to have been the case.

[Herlock Sholmes]

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For Fanny, the relevant period is 12:30-1:00, even though she locked up a few minutes prior.
Why? Because of the time she rushes outside, after hearing the commotion ...

It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

That is fairly precise, which perhaps indicates that she checked the time when preparing to go to bed.
It also gives us a fair idea of when the discovery really occurred. Even more so when considering this

Or might she have have heard that Diemschutz had discovered the body at 1.00 while she was at the yard? She’d also heard the horse and cart of course. I’d suggest that this is the likeliest way that she got her time. We don’t know if she owned a clock or not of course but she came up with her 12.45 time for Smith’s passing but she maybe have misjudged the length of time from hearing Smith to her arrival at the yard? When interviewed it would only have been a case of mistaking 30 minutes previously for 20 minutes which a stretch of the imagination IMO. As we’ve already said the 5 minutes before hearing the commotion was probably a case of the reporter doing his sums.

We have to stress that no one hears any commotion before one except for Hoschberg hearing the whistle.

[Herlock Sholmes]

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I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police. Another man went for them at the same time. We could not find one at first, but when we got to the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, I found two constables, and I told them there was a woman murdered in Berner-street.

If correct this eliminates my suggestion about Lamb calling Ayliffe back but of course they could simply have been talking.

The whistle heard by the guy that Spooner ran into (I can’t recall his name) couldn’t on reflection have been Lamb because Spooner got to the yard 5 minutes before he did. So the second whistle is one that we have no explanation for unless there was an unconnected incident somewhere else? If Eagle first turned left into Commercial Road but couldn’t find a Constable might that have been because an officer or officers who might have been expected to have been found were answering the whistle call of a fellow officer? There’s no mention of any ‘incident’ of course but it might explain any question as to why Eagle “…could not find one at first,?”

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
I think he did lie, but it was not a big one. Just a convenient bit of rounding-up.
Very early on the Sunday, he was saying something a little different to his later remarks ...

I have been steward of the International Club for six or seven years; I am also a traveller in common jewellery. I went yesterday to Weston Hill market, a place I usually visit on Saturdays, and I got back about one o'clock this morning.

That is from a statement by Louis, in the Irish Times. That is the same paper that was talking to Abraham Herschberg, at around 6am.

In the Echo, Oct 1 (Monday), the story has changed a little ...

I live at 40, Berner-street, and am steward to the Club. On Saturday I left home at 11.30 in the morning, and returned home at exactly one a.m. on Sunday morning.

That might have been captured by the reporter who spoke to Wess, on Sunday afternoon.

So it's just a little lie, but it could have a big flow-on effect to other events.
And if it were a lie, a big issue becomes; what colour was it - white, or schwartz? (sorry, couldn't resist

I think you’re being a bit harsh calling these lies.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
For Fanny, the relevant period is 12:30-1:00, even though she locked up a few minutes prior.
Why? Because of the time she rushes outside, after hearing the commotion ...

It was just after one o'clock when I went out ...

What’s annoying is that police didn’t ask how she arrived at her times… likewise all witnesses. Knowing who had watches or clocks or who had seen one might help our assessment. Although one of the witness, probably Eagle, mentions the club having a clock (as expected) but he didn’t check it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

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Still flowing 15 minutes after she died?
Yet on the other hand, all that blood loss does not fit too easily with interruption due to Diemschitz

Im not much on medical stuff but I’m pretty sure that this is possible? Someone might step in with info.

[caz]

Thanks Caz. Can you help me decipher another one...?

Daily News, Oct 1:

Charles Letchford, living at 30, Berners-street says: "I passed through the street at half-past 12, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at 10 minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by. I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policemen's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row."

He hears a commotion going on in the yard, and hears a whistle being blown more than once, but takes no notice for the reasons stated. So he doesn't actually see what is causing the commotion or who is blowing the whistle, but recognises it as a police whistle.

Clear enough?

[FrankO]

If correct this eliminates my suggestion about Lamb calling Ayliffe back but of course they could simply have been talking.

The whistle heard by the guy that Spooner ran into (I can’t recall his name) couldn’t on reflection have been Lamb because Spooner got to the yard 5 minutes before he did. So the second whistle is one that we have no explanation for unless there was an unconnected incident somewhere else? If Eagle first turned left into Commercial Road but couldn’t find a Constable might that have been because an officer or officers who might have been expected to have been found were answering the whistle call of a fellow officer? There’s no mention of any ‘incident’ of course but it might explain any question as to why Eagle “…could not find one at first,?”

Hi Mike,

As to the "second whistle blower", I think that the adrenaline and general confusion of seeing a woman with her throat deeply cut and all the blood are responsible for it. Seeing that there's no other evidence of a whistle being blown than that of Lamb and that there wasn't any reason for a whistle to have been blown before Lamb did that, I think that Spooner and Heshburg replaced the yelling of "Police" and "Murder" of those running for the police for the whistle that they had also heard, but just not at that moment. In the case of Mr. Harris, who followed Spooner to the yard, Diemshutz & Kozebrodski had just past Tiger Bay (Brunswick Street?), running and shouting for the police. The same could be true of Abraham Heshburg, but in this case it was Eagle who past his house running & shouting "Police".

As for Eagle stating that "we could not find one at first", I think that would be perfectly explained by him turning left on the top of Berner Street and turning back after having reached Backchurch Lane, and Kozebrodski joining him after his south-bound search at the intersection of Berner & Commercial Street. This would not only explain that Kozebrodski said he first went to look for a PC via Fairclough to Grove Street and afterwards joined Eagle where they found 2 PC's, but it would also have been perfectly natural for Kozebrodski to inform Eagle when he joined him, that they hadn't been able to find a PC in the direction they took. Which, in turn, would explain why Eagle stated "We could not find one at first,..."

[FrankO]

In theory, yes.

Completely agree, I never said or wished to convey otherwise.

However, it seems as though the searching, while not quite one party going out after another returns unsuccessful, was a bit staggered in time, and Eagle admits his search was not a particularly fast and efficient process ...

I don't think it can be concluded that Eagle said that his search wasn't particularly fast and efficient.

As you know, this should have taken no more time or even less, than the Fairclough to Grove street search (that also paused to pick up Spooner), but that seems not to have been the case.

In fact, the stretch from the yard, via Commercial Street to Grove Street is longer than that from the yard, through Fairclough Street, to Grove Street. The first stretch would have been some 245 meters, the latter some 145 meters. So, even adding a pause to pick up Spooner, the southern trip would still have taken less time than the northern route. We can say this with a fair bit of certainty, as it's quite clear from the evidence that no side streets were taken (they past them).