If Schwartz Lied ...

[drstrange169]

>>Abraham Hershburg did not hear these shouts, although he did hear the sound of a police whistle from inside his place at 28 Berner street<<

Have you ever heard the whistles they used? I have one and I can assure you it is VERY loud, certainly louder than I can shout, decibel wise.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Yes, 12:40 is 20 minutes before Deimshutz's arrival at 1:00, which he testifies is based upon reading a clock, and for which there is no evidence that calls that into question. There's lot's of conjecture, and supposition, but in the end nothing of substance. Now, the only other clock based time that springs to my mind is the arrival of the doctor at 1:16, and as far as I can recall all other times are estimates. Given 1:16 is so far after the fact it would, by itself, offer little in the way of an anchor point upon which to work with to try and deduce the other times (like Eagle's or Lave's arrival times), if we were for the moment to set aside Deimshutz's 1 o'clock, then what do we now mean by time? What's our common reference point? What does it mean to say the murder happened at 12:55? Do we mean 12:55 real time, or do we mean 12:55 as an estimate of real time (since all we are left with are estimates)? And if we're going to describe a time-line based upon estimates of real time, why set aside Deimshutz's time at all, as it would have to be viewed as just another estimate; what is gained by saying "he estimated 1:00, but I'm going to say he should have estimated 12:55?" We also have Eagle estimating he saw the body around 1:00, admittedly he's estimating the time, but now we have 2 people estimating the discovering of the body to be around 1:00. Trying to deduce a "real time of 12:55" but calling all the statements of time to work with estimates is to set up an impossible situation. The most common time, either testified as being based upon a clock or presented as an estimate of the time, set the body discovery at 1o'clock, hence I use that as the reference point. If someone wants to change the reference point to something else, say 12:50, or 1:10, then just subtract or add 10 minutes to all of the times I give accordingly. It doesn't really matter, particularly as the Doctor's watch is unlikely to be in sync with Deimshutz's clock, so even that 16 minute window could be 18 minutes, or 14, etc. We don't know by how much the two clocks were out of sync, or in which direction. We can, however, try and work out the comings and goings, the relative order people arrive and leave, and based upon that, and using our two anchor points of 1:00 and 1:16, work out if more, or less, time was needed. If more is needed, and it's within a few minutes, we might be satisfied that reflects the Doctor's watch being slow relative to Deimshutz's clock. Personally, I rather suspect 16 minutes will be enough time to fit in the fetching of the police, the arrival of Spooner, and the eventual arrival of the Doctor, and the other events that were all going on simultaneously. And if those estimates of duration and so forth seem accurate enough, then we can extend our trust backwards a bit to try and work out the estimated times for the events prior to Stride's discovery, which of course include narrowing down the time window in which Schwartz's incident was supposed to occur.

The grapes are another matter, one which I've not kept abreast of. As I recall, there is no mention of a grape stalk by either the police who examined her, or by the doctor. It's not clear to me when the grapes start appearing in people's statements, whether it is before or after Packer was in the news. Packer made a bit of a fuss, I believe, and I think there's reports he talked quite freely about serving grapes to Stride and a man (presumably JtR), not just to the press but to the people in general. Not sure where I get that memory from, and it could be something my brain has made up, but if it's not a confabulation then it probably is found or implied in some of the letters and/or communications between the police and HO. Anyway, the medical opinion was that Stride had not consumed the skin or pips of grapes that evening, but some have argued she may have spat them out, and only swallowed the soft fleshy bits. As such, there's conflicting evidence that cannot co-exist easily, either she ate grapes, was holding both cachous and a grape stalk at the time of her murder (dropping neither), but that the grape stalk was lost by the time she was examined by the police (or during that examination) and so was not there when the doctor examined her, or there never was a grape stalk in her hand but due to rumours going around and Packer's claim of having sold grapes to Stride and a man, people then convinced themselves they saw them. That too can happen. But being incorrect about the grapes doesn't mean incorrect about everything. Each topic of evidence needs to be explored in its own right. Anyway, I'm sure I've got some details wrong about the grapes, as I say, I'm working off of very old memories here as I've never paid much attention to the grapes and all of the ins and outs of the statements surrounding them.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I agree with your first paragraph entirely, but there were other clocks invloved. As I have said before, the longer the time since the last sighting of a clock, the less accurate the estimate. We know there was a clock in the Club because Frank found a reference where Eagle specifically stated that his time of discovery was an estimate because he "didn't look at the clock". Kozebrodsky said that Diemshitz called him at, not about, 12:40, so was he using a clock time? Mortimer didn't say she had a clock, but how could she estimate if she didn't have a base time? Even if she did it could have been up to 15 minutes out of sync with the Harris clock and/or the Club clock. Brown said his times were estimates because he didn't look at the clock in the Chandler's shop where he bought his dinner. I find Brown's statement a little curious as I've always thought that chandlers sold light fittings, not food. Did he actually mean the Bakery on the corner of Boyd St that Diemshitz also referred to in one journalist's account of his inquest testimony as his reference clock. I tend to regard police estimates as more reliable, but I have to concede that Smith may not have looked at the Harris clock at 1AM if he was approaching the corner from the west. However, Lamb was asked specifically by the Coroner, as a stand alone question, how long it had been since he had passed the Harris clock corner on his way west, and Lamb replied 6-7 minutes, which is quite an accurate way to express and estimate. My thought on this is that he had just observed the Harris clock on his way to the Fixed-point station at Grove St to attain a time for the end of Ayliffe's shift at 1AM. Since Lamb said in one report that he was hailed by two jews shortly before 1AM, there suddenly arises a conflict between his estimate and Diemshitz's time from the same clock. Many of Diemshitz's accounts, as reported in the newspapers are contradictory and I tend to give more credence to the police when there is a conflict.

With regard to Packer, his initial reply to White was that he saw and heard nothing unusual. Selling grapes wasn't unusual, that's what he did. It wasn't until the witness statements were published that he realised that grapes were involved in the murder. There were about six witnesses that saw grapes at the time. In one account, Diemshitz said he saw the grapes when the doctor opened Stride's hand, but Diemshitz had mistaken Johnson for Blackwell. My current conjecture is that, since all the witness statements involving grapes were before Blackwell's initial examination, that either Spooner or Johnson dislodged the grapes from Stride's hand when hey examined the body and they became hidden in her clothing. On the day following the muder, Diemshitz's servant said she found grape skins and seeds in the yard.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

With regards to Smith's beat, I turn to Monty's book which has an official route in it (Mizens).

What seems clear to me and makes sense, is that, unless they are going down a dead end, the beat bobby never goes up and down a street at the same time.
For example in Smith's case he might go down Berner along Fairclough then up Batty, covering the "up" Berner later. The advantage of this from a policing point of view is that the same street is covered twice at different times, thus increasing the police presence.

Hi Dusty,

Are you able to post that map, or is it a description? I did pose this question to Neil on the "Ask Monty" thread, but if you already have something, can you post it please?

Edit: Oops, it is Mizens you have. I got excited there for a moment. I agree with your point about the up and down u-turns. The A-Z has a diifferent route to the Bromley which suggests Gowers was a mistake, that it should have read Grove. I still can't work out an orderly beat with Smith going up Berner St.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

. So when Diemschitz came in, was Eagle downstairs or upstairs?

Morning Advertiser:

C: When did you hear of the murder?
E: A member named Gidleman came up and said there was a dead woman in the yard.

Daily News:

E: As soon as I entered the gateway on the night in question I heard a friend of mine singing-perhaps the window was partly open, but I am not sure. He was singing in the Russian language. I went up and we sang together. I had been there about 20 minutes when the man I mentioned-Gigelmann-came and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, struck a match, and saw a woman lying on the ground near the gates with a lot of blood near her.

Apparently he was upstairs. So the story has changed from the LEN account...

We were singing songs and all that sort of thing. Then there was a sudden scare among us; Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside. I ran into the yard immediately and I saw in the yard a stream of blood.

Eagle said he then struck a match. AF agrees...

Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!”

One wonders where Diemschitz was at this point. Perhaps on Commercial Road, about to turn into Berner street.

Eagle was very obviously upstairs and no one has suggested that he wasn’t. He very clearly says that he was upstairs when Gilleman came in to tell about the body. The London Evening News is obviously the same story but he’s in effect ‘cut out the middleman.’

Then there was a scare because Diemschutz had returned to tell of the body in the yard. He doesn’t mean that Diemschutz went upstairs because at the Inquest he says specifically that it was Gilleman who ‘directly’ informed him about the body. You’ve found one in exactly worded newspaper report and off you go trying to weave in a mystery. This is a non-issue. Like all of the others.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi GBinOZ,

A chandlers shop sold just about anything, and would certainly sell food. They're a bit archaic nowadays but can be found along the British canal network, many playing on their quintessential archaic-ness.

For a detailed description of a current chandlers, I'd recommend "Descent of the Stiperstones" by Nigel Blackwell.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Eagle was very obviously upstairs and no one has suggested that he wasn’t. He very clearly says that he was upstairs when Gilleman came in to tell about the body. The London Evening News is obviously the same story but he’s in effect ‘cut out the middleman.’

Then there was a scare because Diemschutz had returned to tell of the body in the yard. He doesn’t mean that Diemschutz went upstairs because at the Inquest he says specifically that it was Gilleman who ‘directly’ informed him about the body. You’ve found one in exactly worded newspaper report and off you go trying to weave in a mystery. This is a non-issue. Like all of the others.

That should read ‘inexactly’ worded newspaper report.

[Herlock Sholmes]

>>Abraham Hershburg did not hear these shouts, although he did hear the sound of a police whistle from inside his place at 28 Berner street<<

Have you ever heard the whistles they used? I have one and I can assure you it is VERY loud, certainly louder than I can shout, decibel wise.

Just out of curiosity Dusty, I recognise all of those books except the one that says The Scar….?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NBFN,

Doesn't matter that he's under oath, he's speaking, using language as people do. And, regardless, adding up his estimated times to arrive at an estimate of when he first saw the body is by definition a calculation, even if one of those estimates is his subjective idea of how long he was at the club after having returned. It's still addition, and addition is a calculation.

Eagle: After the discussion, between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door. I returned about twenty minutes to one.

So if he left at about 11:40, the walk was as much as 30 minutes each way. That means he hadn't looked at a clock for up to 50 minutes! How long do you suppose it had been since Smith last looked at a clock, before he arrived at the top of Berner street?

And why wouldn't he be in the habit of walking between his girlfriend's home and the club? That's hardly something that might be considered unusual behaviour, and certainly far more likely to be correct than our guesses as to his internal motivations for providing an estimate that happens to correspond with other witnesses. The far more simpler explanation is that the body was found at 1 o'clock (thereabouts, given Deimshutz's spotting of the clock at 1, the body finding was probably between 1:00, 1:01, or 1:02 type thing, all of which would be satisfactorily testified to as "about 1".

Perhaps Eagle had a vastly better sense of time than Smith, or perhaps he got a hint from Diemschitz.

yes, I think that's very possible. His return to the trip would be of personal interest to him, random people on the street he might pay very little attention to at all, which he seems to indicate was the case. He's not even saying he did see anyone, only that he dare says he did, which is more or less saying "there probably were some people around, but I took no notice". He says he doesn't remember them, and given his response we can also suggest he doesn't remember the street being empty either. That indicates he paid no attention, and therefore would have no memory to jog when he saw the body.

Do you believe him? I dare say he knew he had seen the victim talking to a man, pretty much right outside the club. If that was true, then he quite possibly recognized the man with the parcel.

And, as I've said, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Eagle did walk past Stride when he returned at around 12:40, and if that's correct, then she's still alive at around 12:40.

Or if he arrived a bit too late to see them, the Lave saw them instead. How could Lave have been out on the street before 12:40, and not seen Stride with Smith's man?

Who else could it be? Spooner and his girlfriend were in the vicinity, though further down on Fairclough, but if they were strolling about maybe them? Also, Mrs. M. mentions a couple other than Stride (a man and his sweetheart I think she refers to them as?), so it could have been them. Mrs. M herself, out on her step, could be someone he vaguely recalls, and she's forgotten him and only remembers the man with the black shiny bag (or her suggestion that the man may have come from the club has conflated shiny bag man with Eagle's return). There's all sorts of people he dare could have passed, but paid no attention to, and so hasn't the foggiest idea what they looked like.

If Eagle saw Mortimer's board school couple, then it's basically all over for Israel Schwartz.
Fanny said she did not recognize the man with the black bag, suggesting that well known club personalities, like Eagle, were known to her in some sense. Whatever the case, to suggest that Fanny confused a man leaving the club with one arriving, and with no bag, is surely a long shot.

Almost all comparisons of the newspapers will result in similar conflicts. This is why the newspapers cannot be relied upon. Also, how people talk to the newspapers and what gets put into the stories, results in this sort of thing. For example, let's say that what actually happened was that Eagle was upstairs singing, and Gigleman was the one who comes up and tells everyone that Deimshutz has found a body of a woman outside the club. When Eagle speaks to the news, that could easily get reported as Deimshutz told him directly, as in he tells them something like "I was at the club when Deimshutz told us of the body he found", which describes the situation (the us meaning the club in general in this statement), and the reporter writes it up as if there were direct communication between them. That doesn't even require "dressing up" by the reporter to make the story more captivating.

Was this report of Eagle's inquest testimony, reliable? The People, Oct 7:

I went out, and striking a match found a woman lying with her feet 6ft from the gate, near the club wall, with her head to the wall. Others came with me, but seemed frightened to go near. Assuming it was drunken and not a dead woman, before striking a match, I said, "Get up." There being no reply, I then ignited a match, and was fearfully upset by seeing a woman lying in a lot of blood. I immediately ran away for a policeman, and found two.

Similar to Arbeter Fraint...

“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”

So at this point Eagle leaves for police - "I immediately ran away for a policeman, and found two."

No, by this time Diemshutz has returned, as he's the one who alerted the members of the club to the body in the first place. He can't do that from Commercial Road.

AF: In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard.

Yet according to Mrs Diemschitz, it was Louis who struck the match, before everyone ran downstairs and out into the yard...

Mrs D: I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard.

It would seem that when comrades Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body, Louis Diemschitz was not - that occurred later.

Again, lot's of ways to miss seeing someone. Stride could be further down the street at that time, and he's not looking in that direction. Or, he wasn't paying attention to people standing off down the way, and so forth. There's no reason for anyone at this point to be on guard and scanning for anything. It's a night out, probably drinks being enjoyed, with singing and what not. Not everyone engages in people watching, so at this point, it's hardly surprising when someone admits they don't recall seeing anything. Maybe she was there and he just didn't take note, hence, doesn't remember her.

Lave in the Daily News: I was in the club yard this (Sunday) morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen anybody moving about there.

He should have seen anybody moving about there. Perhaps they were standing too still for him to notice?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Eagle was very obviously upstairs and no one has suggested that he wasn’t. He very clearly says that he was upstairs when Gilleman came in to tell about the body. The London Evening News is obviously the same story but he’s in effect ‘cut out the middleman.’

Then there was a scare because Diemschutz had returned to tell of the body in the yard. He doesn’t mean that Diemschutz went upstairs because at the Inquest he says specifically that it was Gilleman who ‘directly’ informed him about the body. You’ve found one in exactly worded newspaper report and off you go trying to weave in a mystery. This is a non-issue. Like all of the others.

Eagle in the MA, Oct 1: After I had been in the club 20 minutes the steward came in and said there was a woman lying in the yard. I went down into the yard and saw the blood, and afterwards assisted to find the police.

Even if you choose to ignore that, there several other anomalies that need to be explained away.

E: I struck a light and saw her covered in blood. I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police.

Was that after Diemschitz had struck a light himself?

D: I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body.
C: Did you touch the body?
D: No, I ran off at once for the police.

So how did Eagle manage to see this...?

When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street...

Did Eagle know who went in the direction of Fairclough street, or was he guessing?

[drstrange169]

Hello George, I won't post the map out of respect for Monty, you can ask him if it's ok on the other thread, but I feel that's his choice to make. Of course you, and should buy the book, it's well worth it!

[drstrange169]

The Scarlet thread by Gurvich and Ray, about Deeming in Oz.

[FrankO]

One wonders where Diemschitz was at this point. Perhaps on Commercial Road, about to turn into Berner street.

Philip Krantz:
"When I heard the alarm I went out and saw the deceased, but did not observe any stranger there.
Did you look to see if anybody was about - anybody who might have committed the murder? - I did look. I went out to the gates, and found that some members of the club had gone for the police."

"When I went out I saw several members near a woman who was dead, but no one I know. Two of the members had gone to look for a policeman."

[FrankO]

So perhaps Eagle shouted while running up Berner street and beyond, but not very loudly?

Good one, Andrew.

[FrankO]

The A-Z has a diifferent route to the Bromley which suggests Gowers was a mistake, that it should have read Grove. I still can't work out an orderly beat with Smith going up Berner St.

Hi George,

Below an orderly beat I've been able to work out with Smith first going down Berner on the eastern side, then going up Batty on the eastern side, then going down Christian Street and turning left until Grove Street, then turning back to Berner, going up on the western side, then turning east and going down Batty Street on the western side, at the southern end turning right into Fairclough and going towards Backchurch Lane and to the starting point of his beat.



The only thing about this route that doesn't fit the evidence is that there can't have been (almost) an intire round (i.e. 25-30 minutes) between Smith seeing Stride & companion at around 12.30-12.35 and him arriving back at the top of Berner Street at about 1 o'clock. He must have been about halfway his beat when he saw the couple if he made such a round. But, perhaps, that's what you meant by "I still can't work out an orderly beat with Smith going up Berner St."...

Cheers,
Frank

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Philip Krantz:
"When I heard the alarm I went out and saw the deceased, but did not observe any stranger there.
Did you look to see if anybody was about - anybody who might have committed the murder? - I did look. I went out to the gates, and found that some members of the club had gone for the police."

"When I went out I saw several members near a woman who was dead, but no one I know. Two of the members had gone to look for a policeman."

This totally contradicts Arbeter Fraint, which was presumably written with at least some input by Krantz. Either that or he was the main author.
It also suggests that Eagle could not have seen Diemschitz or anyone else leave for police, which means there are zero credible witnesses to Diemschitz being part of any search party.

Now to the biggest clanger of them all...

From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.”

Gilyarovsky discovered the body. What, you don't believe me? He saw blood even though the alarm was supposedly not raised until Diemschitz went into the club, and Gilyarovsky then immediately ran into the printing shop. Clearly he had already seen the body!

There can be little doubt that Gilyarovsky was Kozebrodski, and little doubt the Kozebrodski was the young lad who informed Joseph Koster of the murder, at about 12:55. This is why Koster was tempted to claim the discovery as his own - Diemschitz was still seconds away from arriving when Koster became aware of the situation.