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  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Something we cannot know.
    So given that you don't want to deal with probabilities, we must therefore accept that we cannot know if Cadosch heard the murder, and thus we cannot use his testimony to determine the approximate time of death, or anything else of relevance.

    The sound of something brushing/falling against a fence in the yard of a packing case business. Cadosch was aware of this fact so unless the noise was something way out of the ordinary (examples above) he’d have had zero reason to look over the fence and risk being called a ‘nosey b*#^*#d.’
    It is not up to you to decide what Cadosch regards as out of the ordinary.
    Nor is it up to you to decide how Cadosch would have reacted to an out of the ordinary sound.
    All you are doing is guessing, based on what you suppose you would do, in Cadosch's situation.
    And is that what you mean by evidence - your own subjective appraisal of someone's hypothetical behavior, in response to a hypothetical sound, 132 years ago?

    Btw, how do you suppose Cadosch knew that next door's packing business was in the habit placing cases against the fence, unless he were a ‘nosey b*#^*#d.’?
    Let me guess - "something we cannot know".
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

      So given that you don't want to deal with probabilities, we must therefore accept that we cannot know if Cadosch heard the murder, and thus we cannot use his testimony to determine the approximate time of death, or anything else of relevance.

      I’m just saying that we can’t assume that we know an unknown.

      It is not up to you to decide what Cadosch regards as out of the ordinary.
      Nor is it up to you to decide how Cadosch would have reacted to an out of the ordinary sound.
      All you are doing is guessing, based on what you suppose you would do, in Cadosch's situation.
      And is that what you mean by evidence - your own subjective appraisal of someone's hypothetical behavior, in response to a hypothetical sound, 132 years ago?

      You were the one saying that it was 100% If there’s a noise coming from the other side of a fence in your neighbours garden are you honestly saying that you’d stick your head over the fence?

      Btw, how do you suppose Cadosch knew that next door's packing business was in the habit placing cases against the fence, unless he were a ‘nosey b*#^*#d.’?
      Let me guess - "something we cannot know".

      Or that he’d seen the packing cases from his bedroom window.
      Or that he knew that next door was a packing case business and that he’d heard the sounds of ‘wooden things’ banging against the fence at times and made a very obvious deduction.

      Regards

      Herlock




      “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
      As night descends upon this fabled street:
      A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
      The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
      Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
      And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        Or that he knew that next door was a packing case business and that he’d heard the sounds of ‘wooden things’ banging against the fence at times and made a very obvious deduction.
        Then why doesn't he make that 'very obvious deduction' explicit, at the inquest?
        He talks about the sound of a fall against the fence - do packing cases fall down?
        Then he says "as if something touched the fence suddenly".
        Something? Why does he put it like that, if he is familiar with the case sound?
        More to the point, why does he even remember this? It seems like something that would be very unmemorable for a man getting ready for work.

        Cadosch: I informed the police the same night after I returned from my work.

        Informed them of what? - that he had heard the familiar sound of a packing case contacting the fence that morning, a few minutes after hearing a sex-unspecified voice say 'no', possibly from #29? What's to tell?
        Well it would seem that Cadosch wants us to draw an association between the 'no' and the fence sound - as if they were related.
        The implication of this association being that it was not a packing case that he heard!

        But here is a bigger issue; you claim Cadosch probably just assumed the sound against the fence was a packing case, and reasonably took no interest in it.
        However, this is what he said to Baxter:

        Cadosch: I was thinking about my work, and not that there was anything the matter, otherwise most likely I would have been curious enough to look over.

        So he would have been curious, if it were not for thoughts of another day's work being foremost in his mind.
        Rather an odd thing to say, don't you think? It only takes a second to look - over the fence, between the palings, whatever.
        So we don't really have to speculate on how interesting or forgettable the sound was to Cadosch - it was interesting enough to remember, and tell the police and the coroner about, and describe in a way that implies it was quite possibly not a packing case he heard that morning, but not interesting enough to glance at at the time!
        How bizarre!

        And why does Cadosch hear nothing else when outside the second time?
        There are signs that Annie fought for her life - not hard to believe - yet Cadosch was apparently unaware of anything going on behind a rickety old fence, just feet away from where he would have walked outside and in, but he apparently remained totally oblivious ... because he was thinking about work.

        And why does Cadosch need to go outside twice in a few minutes, anyway?
        Does he really need to pee when he gets up, and then again just 3 or 4 minutes later?
        Can the bladder really fill that quickly?

        There is an interesting post about Cadosch, by Bridewell https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-a-secret-life
        If I've read it correctly, Albert was 27 in Sep '88.
        PC Smith's 'parcel man' was about 28 by looks.
        Albert was a carpenter at the time of the murder, so he was probably quite strong physically, owned tools, and probably some ... chalk.
        What side of the fence was Cadosch really on, that morning?
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • We can’ t know it as such, but the implication us a very strong one. Personally, I have tremendously more trouble making the assumption that he was honest than accepting he was a lying attention-seeker.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

            Then why doesn't he make that 'very obvious deduction' explicit, at the inquest?
            He talks about the sound of a fall against the fence - do packing cases fall down?
            Then he says "as if something touched the fence suddenly".
            Something? Why does he put it like that, if he is familiar with the case sound?
            More to the point, why does he even remember this? It seems like something that would be very unmemorable for a man getting ready for work.

            Cadosch: I informed the police the same night after I returned from my work.

            Informed them of what? - that he had heard the familiar sound of a packing case contacting the fence that morning, a few minutes after hearing a sex-unspecified voice say 'no', possibly from #29? What's to tell?
            Well it would seem that Cadosch wants us to draw an association between the 'no' and the fence sound - as if they were related.
            The implication of this association being that it was not a packing case that he heard!

            But here is a bigger issue; you claim Cadosch probably just assumed the sound against the fence was a packing case, and reasonably took no interest in it.
            However, this is what he said to Baxter:

            Cadosch: I was thinking about my work, and not that there was anything the matter, otherwise most likely I would have been curious enough to look over.

            So he would have been curious, if it were not for thoughts of another day's work being foremost in his mind.
            Rather an odd thing to say, don't you think? It only takes a second to look - over the fence, between the palings, whatever.
            So we don't really have to speculate on how interesting or forgettable the sound was to Cadosch - it was interesting enough to remember, and tell the police and the coroner about, and describe in a way that implies it was quite possibly not a packing case he heard that morning, but not interesting enough to glance at at the time!
            How bizarre!

            Why bizarre? He hears a noise. He doesn’t know what it is. As there’s a packing case business next door he thinks “probably just the neighbours working.” He’s more interested in getting to work. Then he hears about the murder and begins to wonder if it wasn’t the neighbours after all but the sound of a woman being killed.

            And why does Cadosch hear nothing else when outside the second time?
            There are signs that Annie fought for her life - not hard to believe - yet Cadosch was apparently unaware of anything going on behind a rickety old fence, just feet away from where he would have walked outside and in, but he apparently remained totally oblivious ... because he was thinking about work.

            Because Annie was already dead and the sound that he heard was the killer bumping against the fence as he performed the mutilations. A single bump.

            And why does Cadosch need to go outside twice in a few minutes, anyway?
            Does he really need to pee when he gets up, and then again just 3 or 4 minutes later?
            Can the bladder really fill that quickly?

            He explained that. He’d just been in hospital which caused him to need the loo more than he would have normally.

            There is an interesting post about Cadosch, by Bridewell https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...-a-secret-life
            If I've read it correctly, Albert was 27 in Sep '88.
            PC Smith's 'parcel man' was about 28 by looks.
            Albert was a carpenter at the time of the murder, so he was probably quite strong physically, owned tools, and probably some ... chalk.
            What side of the fence was Cadosch [Ireally[/I] on, that morning?
            I’ll read this later on.
            Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 10-11-2020, 01:07 PM.
            Regards

            Herlock




            “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
            As night descends upon this fabled street:
            A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
            The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
            Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
            And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

            Comment


            • I read the article (good research by Colin) and realised that I’d read it before. It doesn’t impact on this case though. Just because someone has the capacity to lie (which would include everyone) doesn’t mean he lied about what he heard.
              Regards

              Herlock




              “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
              As night descends upon this fabled street:
              A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
              The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
              Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
              And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                I read the article (good research by Colin) and realised that I’d read it before. It doesn’t impact on this case though. Just because someone has the capacity to lie (which would include everyone) doesn’t mean he lied about what he heard.
                You keep missing the point with this witness.

                No matter what he heard if he in fact did hear anything, it does not prove that the noise he said he heard was from the killer murdering Chapman,

                In the grand scheme of things does it really matter what time she was murdered, does the time of the murder change anything, no it doesnt, but the time of the murder is somewhat relevant because there were no other murders as late as 5am which took place in a location not conducive to the killer being seen or disturbed at that time of the morning when it was almost daylight.

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                  You keep missing the point with this witness.

                  No matter what he heard if he in fact did hear anything, it does not prove that the noise he said he heard was from the killer murdering Chapman,

                  In the grand scheme of things does it really matter what time she was murdered, does the time of the murder change anything, no it doesnt, but the time of the murder is somewhat relevant because there were no other murders as late as 5am which took place in a location not conducive to the killer being seen or disturbed at that time of the morning when it was almost daylight.

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                  I don’t think that it’s me that’s ‘missing the point’ here Trevor. Of course he either heard something or he didn’t but... if he did hear a voice and a sound coming from number 29 and Annie was supposedly already lying there dead what else could it have been? Please don’t say a cat.
                  Regards

                  Herlock




                  “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                  As night descends upon this fabled street:
                  A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                  The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                  Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                  And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                  Comment


                  • Re #125

                    And why does Cadosch hear nothing else when outside the second time?
                    There are signs that Annie fought for her life - not hard to believe - yet Cadosch was apparently unaware of anything going on behind a rickety old fence, just feet away from where he would have walked outside and in, but he apparently remained totally oblivious ... because he was thinking about work.

                    Because Annie was already dead and the sound that he heard was the killer bumping against the fence as he performed the mutilations. A single bump.
                    Phillips: My impression is that she was partially strangled.

                    Was Annie partially strangled after falling dead against the fence?
                    Or was it before the fall, in which case she must have conveniently remained standing so the Ripper could then cut her throat.

                    So the Ripper bumping against the fence sounded like the packing case bumps?
                    Sounds more like a head-butt than a bump.
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • Isnīt it all very obvious?

                      He tells Lloyds that he heard a scuffle, at the end of which someone seemingly fell heavily against the fence and thumped against the ground, at the exact point where Chapmans body was later found.

                      And then, when Baxter asks him if what he had described at the inquest as something suddenly touching the fence did not evoke his interest, he says "I was thinking about my work, and not that there was anything the matter, otherwise most likely I would have been curious enough to look over."

                      A sudden touching of the fence does not mean that something necessarily is the matter. Irt does not mean that you will get curious.

                      A scuffle between two people, followed by a heavy fall against the fence and down to the ground, definitely means that something is the matter. And you will get curious.

                      Cadosch could only claim a disinterest against the background of the helium light version of his original "I heard Chapman getting killed" story. His "I overheard the real thing" story would not have worked in that context.

                      I think the time has come to move on. Cadosch has stolen our interest for 132 years, and that really should be quite enough.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                        I don’t think that it’s me that’s ‘missing the point’ here Trevor. Of course he either heard something or he didn’t but... if he did hear a voice and a sound coming from number 29 and Annie was supposedly already lying there dead what else could it have been? Please don’t say a cat.
                        But he is not specific as to where the sound actually came from so as I keep saying his testimony is unsafe to totally rely on. You would appear to be relying on Richardsons testimony to support your belief in Cadosch`s testimony, which is dangerous because each witness and their testimony has to be judged separately and accepted or rejected accordingly.

                        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          Isnīt it all very obvious?

                          He tells Lloyds that he heard a scuffle, at the end of which someone seemingly fell heavily against the fence and thumped against the ground, at the exact point where Chapmans body was later found.

                          And then, when Baxter asks him if what he had described at the inquest as something suddenly touching the fence did not evoke his interest, he says "I was thinking about my work, and not that there was anything the matter, otherwise most likely I would have been curious enough to look over."

                          A sudden touching of the fence does not mean that something necessarily is the matter. Irt does not mean that you will get curious.

                          A scuffle between two people, followed by a heavy fall against the fence and down to the ground, definitely means that something is the matter. And you will get curious.

                          Cadosch could only claim a disinterest against the background of the helium light version of his original "I heard Chapman getting killed" story. His "I overheard the real thing" story would not have worked in that context.

                          I think the time has come to move on. Cadosch has stolen our interest for 132 years, and that really should be quite enough.
                          Totally agree this topic has been done to death now (no pun intended)

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                          Comment


                          • Re #125

                            And why does Cadosch need to go outside twice in a few minutes, anyway?
                            Does he really need to pee when he gets up, and then again just 3 or 4 minutes later?
                            Can the bladder really fill that quickly?

                            He explained that. He’d just been in hospital which caused him to need the loo more than he would have normally.
                            Okay, but that's not the sense that I get from reading what he says.

                            While coming back I heard a sort of a fall against the fence...

                            Freeze time right there. What are Albert's next movements?

                            I then went into the house, and from there into the street to go to my work.

                            In between these statements, Baxter asks him if he heard any noise while at the end of the yard.
                            However, that was in regard to his first trip outside, not the second.
                            It's as though Albert has heard the fall against the fence, and immediately turned around and walked back inside.
                            Evening Standard, Sep 15:

                            Mr. Cadoche, who lives in the next house to No. 29 Hanbury street, where the murder was committed, has stated that he went to the back of the premises at half past five on the morning of the murder, and as he passed the wooden partition, he heard a woman say, "No, no." On returning he heard a scuffle, and then some one fell heavily against the fence. He heard no cry for help, and so he went into the house.

                            No time elapses between hearing the noise and going back inside.
                            As he claims to reach Spitalfield's Church about 5:32, he would appear to have a missing few minutes.
                            Sure we can fill those in for him, but why should we?
                            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                              Re #125



                              Phillips: My impression is that she was partially strangled.

                              Was Annie partially strangled after falling dead against the fence?
                              Or was it before the fall, in which case she must have conveniently remained standing so the Ripper could then cut her throat.

                              So the Ripper bumping against the fence sounded like the packing case bumps?
                              Sounds more like a head-butt than a bump.
                              Or the killer bumping the fence with his elbow or shoulder?
                              Regards

                              Herlock




                              “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                              As night descends upon this fabled street:
                              A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                              The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                              Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                              And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                                Or the killer bumping the fence with his elbow or shoulder?
                                Bumping the fence with his elbow or shoulder, then loosing his balance, falling against the fence and landing on the ground with a thump, if Cadosch was telling the truth to the Lloyds representative.

                                Once we weigh in the whole material, it spells disaster for poor Albert.

                                Comment

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