Cadosch: Dismissed For Being Cautious?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’m pretty certain that I’ve heard 5 ft 6 elsewhere.

Who do suppose people in this forum should take the most note of; a reporter on the scene in 1888, or a man in 2020 who's 'pretty certain' he's read otherwise?
Why do assume your vague recollections are of interest to anyone?

The fence couldn’t possibly have been 4 feet though. Logically the police would have known that it would have been impossible for two people to have remained unseen by Cadosch unless it was Frodo and Bilbo.

Umm ... by the time Richardson got to the fence, Annie was on her back, and Jack was kneeling over her.
At this point, Jack effectively was as tall as Frodo and Bilbo.

What you've done here is slip in an implicit assumption - that both Annie and Jack were upright when Richardson is at/passing the fence the second time.
However, we all we know that Richardson is (supposedly) at the fence the second time, when he hears a fall against it.
That means Annie is on the ground, and Jack is probably down next to her - strangling her up to the point that he cuts her throat - as opposed to standing over her triumphantly, while she is still alive.

This is pretty simple stuff, so the question is; are you slipping in this assumption in a pathetic attempt to make me look stupid?

After the murder he obviously looked over the fence.

What do you mean 'obviously'?
He said he could see the body from the adjoining yard - there is no 'obviously' about it.

Very interesting how you've managed to avoid the issue of Richardson's height, vis-à-vis the fence.

Where is the issue?

Have a look in a mirror - you will see it there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Who do suppose people in this forum should take the most note of; a reporter on the scene in 1888, or a man in 2020 who's 'pretty certain' he's read otherwise?
Why do assume your vague recollections are of interest to anyone?

Or Cadosch himself who said 5 ft 6. Or Davies who said ...around 5ft. Likewise Swanson in his report. Then we have every single photograph ever taken which all show fences much higher than 4 feet. Or are we, yet again and because it’s convenient, assuming absolute idiocy from the police? That they wouldn’t have said “hold on you could have seen over the fence?”

Umm ... by the time Richardson got to the fence, Annie was on her back, and Jack was kneeling over her.
At this point, Jack effectively was as tall as Frodo and Bilbo.


What you've done here is slip in an implicit assumption - that both Annie and Jack were upright when Richardson is at/passing the fence the second time.
However, we all we know that Richardson is (supposedly) at the fence the second time, when he hears a fall against it.
That means Annie is on the ground, and Jack is probably down next to her - strangling her up to the point that he cuts her throat - as opposed to standing over her triumphantly, while she is still alive.

What about the first time when he heard the ‘no?’ Due to the gap in time this couldn’t have been at the point of Annie’s murder so they’d have been upright.

This is pretty simple stuff, so the question is; are you slipping in this assumption in a pathetic attempt to make me look stupid?

I’m not trying to make you look stupid. I’m disagreeing with you.

What do you mean 'obviously'?
He said he could see the body from the adjoining yard - there is no 'obviously' about it.

Very interesting how you've managed to avoid the issue of Richardson's height, vis-à-vis the fence.

The point is that no one at the time, and certainly no police officer mentioned what would have been a very obvious and very pertinent fact. That Cadosch would have been able to see over the fence without making any specific effort. Whatever the position of Annie and her killer at whatever time they would have been upright at some point and the police would have had to have considered why he saw nothing over a four foot fence. This alone shows that the fence was of a height that to have looked over it Cadosch would have had to have made a determined effort.

Have a look in a mirror - you will see it there.

If you’re going to post your ideas for discussion then you have to be prepared that they might occasionally be disagreed with. I honestly can’t see why you feel insulted. My Frodo/Bilbo comment was meant as humour. It’s seems to me, I may be wrong of course, that you would struggle to find anyone that agreed that the fence might have been as low as 4 feet. The chances of the police not noticing or mentioning this must be as close to zero as possible.

[The Rookie Detective]

Someone taking a-fence?


excuse the pun

[Fisherman]

Deleted - the information was already there.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Davies: The yard is separated from the next premises on both sides by close wooden fencing, about 5 ft. 6 in. high.

Close wooden fencing? Echo, Sep 20:

A further consultation of the detectives engaged in the case was held this morning, and an officer again visited the back-yard of No. 29, Hanbury-street, and made a careful inspection of the palings leading from that house to No. 27, where resides the young man Cadosh, who stated at the inquest that he heard sounds proceed from the spot where the body lay at a quarter-past five on the morning of the murder. An examination of the fence shows that immediately over the place in the yard there is an aperture in the palings by which the dead body could have been plainly visible, while anyone moving in the yard might easily have been seen.

Were Davies and Cadosch telling the truth about the fence?
The Star reporter may not have been spot-on with their fence height estimate - it may have been closer to 4'6".
Whatever the exact-ish height, was the fence (on either side) designed for easy communication between neighbors?

As for the police, who I presumably think were stupid, Cadosch tells us that the source of the 'no' was ambiguous, and more importantly, that he was thinking about work, and therefore he did not look across. Otherwise, he 'would have been curious'. In that regard, the height of the fence is somewhat irrelevant.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Davies: The yard is separated from the next premises on both sides by close wooden fencing, about 5 ft. 6 in. high.

Close wooden fencing? Echo, Sep 20:

A further consultation of the detectives engaged in the case was held this morning, and an officer again visited the back-yard of No. 29, Hanbury-street, and made a careful inspection of the palings leading from that house to No. 27, where resides the young man Cadosh, who stated at the inquest that he heard sounds proceed from the spot where the body lay at a quarter-past five on the morning of the murder. An examination of the fence shows that immediately over the place in the yard there is an aperture in the palings by which the dead body could have been plainly visible, while anyone moving in the yard might easily have been seen.

Were Davies and Cadosch telling the truth about the fence?
The Star reporter may not have been spot-on with their fence height estimate - it may have been closer to 4'6".
Whatever the exact-ish height, was the fence (on either side) designed for easy communication between neighbors?

As for the police, who I presumably think were stupid, Cadosch tells us that the source of the 'no' was ambiguous, and more importantly, that he was thinking about work, and therefore he did not look across. Otherwise, he 'would have been curious'. In that regard, the height of the fence is somewhat irrelevant.

Davis, who actually lived at number 29, said that the fence was around 5 ft 6 high.

Every single photograph of the yard shows a fence of around this height.

Cadosch was asked why he wasn’t curious enough to have looked over the fence. If the fence had been a mere 4 feet high he would have been able to have seen over it without any extra effort. The police weren’t simply asking if he’d seen a corpse on the ground they were asking if he’d seen the source of the ‘no’ and the sound.

As for the gap in the fence which a body ‘might’ have been seen through then it just appears that Cadosch didn’t focus on this gap as he passed it.

So can we honestly suggest that the police would have asked why Cadosch didn’t look over a fence that was only 4 feet high? The fence was clearly around 5 ft 6 high.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Davis, who actually lived at number 29, said that the fence was around 5 ft 6 high.

I quoted him (again) saying just that.

Every single photograph of the yard shows a fence of around this height.

How many of those photographs were taken before the 20th century?
Regardless, how are you able to tell the height of a fence by eyeballing a photo of it?

Cadosch was asked why he wasn’t curious enough to have looked over the fence. If the fence had been a mere 4 feet high he would have been able to have seen over it without any extra effort. The police weren’t simply asking if he’d seen a corpse on the ground they were asking if he’d seen the source of the ‘no’ and the sound.

But the victim most likely was on the ground by outside trip two, with Jack down next to her, so that point is irrelevant for that trip.
For trip one, I will make a subjective judgment (like you judging the fence height from photos); there is no way Cadosch could have failed to recognize the direction of the 'no' (or 'no, no') - she would be scant distance away from him, given the adjacent backdoors of 27 & 29. That crappy old fence with large paling gaps is not going to prevent Cadosch from realizing that the sound is coming from almost right next to him. Therefore I doubt it were Annie.

As for the gap in the fence which a body ‘might’ have been seen through then it just appears that Cadosch didn’t focus on this gap as he passed it.

He should be able to detect movement peripherally, though. However, for the second trip that may not be so relevant as I think Cadosch is outside the second time due to hearing sounds while inside. As for the first time, well, was there a first time? Hearing nothing but a 'no' hardly sounds like any sort of a conversation. Did Jack talk in sign language?

So can we honestly suggest that the police would have asked why Cadosch didn’t look over a fence that was only 4 feet high? The fence was clearly around 5 ft 6 high.

It might have been 5' (the 4' in the Star is just another estimate, albeit one made on location), in which case the police are not going to suppose that a man of say 5'6", is necessarily going to see over it, especially if his mind is elsewhere as he said it was.
However, at 5'6" to 6', we are back to the issue of how Richardson could see over the fence from the adjoining yard (which one?).
Mid-eye level is about 5" below the top of the head. How tall is Richardson?
I reckon he can see over that fence quite easily, and it was probably built with cross-fence chat in mind.

What I think has occurred is that Cadosch has heard unusual sounds from inside, and gone outside and to the fence, only to witness something ghastly.
In horror he basically bolts to work, rather than going straight to the police and therefore having to admit he was a bit of a coward.
To save face, he bumps up the height of the fence to make it seem like he reasonably could have missed it all (apart from hearing a bit of the noise).
Davis may go along with the somewhat exaggerated fence height, if he and Cadosch are buddies.

You could say they each told a tall story ha ha

[Herlock Sholmes]

I quoted him (again) saying just that.

I know.

How many of those photographs were taken before the 20th century?
Regardless, how are you able to tell the height of a fence by eyeballing a photo of it?

I have fences in my garden. I know how high they are because they are in my garden. Davis said 5 ft 6. It was the yard of the house where he lived. This should outweigh every other opinion. Especially the press. We’ve all seen the press drawings which couldn’t have been more unlike the real fence. I think that your press report was describing an inaccurate drawing.

But the victim most likely was on the ground by outside trip two, with Jack down next to her, so that point is irrelevant for that trip.
For trip one, I will make a subjective judgment (like you judging the fence height from photos); there is no way Cadosch could have failed to recognize the direction of the 'no' (or 'no, no') - she would be scant distance away from him,

I tend to think that he knew that it came from number 29. This was his first impression. I suspect he altered this at the Inquest because of a combination of hearing about Phillips TOD and pressure from the police who were probably telling him that his opinion contradicted what they had been told.

given the adjacent backdoors of 27 & 29. That crappy old fence with large paling gaps is not going to prevent Cadosch from realizing that the sound is coming from almost right next to him. Therefore I doubt it were Annie.

They said one gap didn’t they? I think that it was Annie or her killer.

He should be able to detect movement peripherally, though.

Not if there was no movement at the precise time that he passed.

However, for the second trip that may not be so relevant as I think Cadosch is outside the second time due to hearing sounds while inside.

He said that he went to the toilet again. He’d just been in hospital. Do you disbelieve every single sentence of this case?

As for the first time, well, was there a first time? Hearing nothing but a 'no' hardly sounds like any sort of a conversation. Did Jack talk in sign language?

Were in conspiracy corner again. Is it impossible that, whatever Cadosch’s hearing levels were, the word ‘no’ might have been spoken slightly louder so that it was the only thing that he heard? Or that the ‘no’ was the response to a question and nothing further was said whilst Cadosch was there? Or that Annie and her killer heard Cadosch and kept quiet after the ‘no’ until he’d gone back inside?

It might have been 5' (the 4' in the Star is just another estimate, albeit one made on location), in which case the police are not going to suppose that a man of say 5'6", is necessarily going to see over it, especially if his mind is elsewhere as he said it was.
However, at 5'6" to 6', we are back to the issue of how Richardson could see over the fence from the adjoining yard (which one?).

Come on! Maybe on tiptoes. Maybe there was something lying around that he could stand on? Maybe his mate gave him a leg up? Maybe he went inside and looked from a bedroom window?

Mid-eye level is about 5" below the top of the head. How tall is Richardson?
I reckon he can see over that fence quite easily, and it was probably built with cross-fence chat in mind.

I assume Richardson is a slip? You mean Cadosch?

What I think has occurred is that Cadosch has heard unusual sounds from inside, and gone outside and to the fence, only to witness something ghastly.
In horror he basically bolts to work, rather than going straight to the police and therefore having to admit he was a bit of a coward.
To save face, he bumps up the height of the fence to make it seem like he reasonably could have missed it all (apart from hearing a bit of the noise).
Davis may go along with the somewhat exaggerated fence height, if he and Cadosch are buddies.

You could say they each told a tall story ha ha

I think that what happened is that he went into the yard and heard ‘no’ as part of a conversation between Annie and her killer. They both kept still and quiet until Cadosch went back inside. Annie was killed and the killer began his mutilations. He didn’t expect Cadosch to come back into the yard so soon and as he was so wrapped up in his work he didn’t hear him. He brushed against the fence in some way as he mutilated Annie.

I firmly believe too that Richardson sat on the middle step to do some work on his shoe and that he looked over the yard and there was no possible area where a mutilated corpse could have remained hidden. And it didn’t because Annie was still alive. I think that the idea of him missing a body to be 1000-1 and the chances of him lying to place himself at the scene of a mutilated corpse in possession of a knife equally remote.

I also believe that there’s a more than reasonable chance that Elizabeth Long saw Annie with her killer but she simply got her time wrong or perhaps both her a Cadosch combined were slightly out in their timing.

The fence was around 5 ft 6.
29 Hanbury Street was not a brothel.
The cellar lock was visible from the steps.
The fact that Annie hadn’t been seen for a few hours is irrelevant.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I assume Richardson is a slip? You mean Cadosch?

No I mean JR observing the body. Suspect there was a whole row of sight-seer's, and they weren't a basketball team.

I think that what happened is that he went into the yard and heard ‘no’ as part of a conversation between Annie and her killer. They both kept still and quiet until Cadosch went back inside. Annie was killed and the killer began his mutilations.

Jack needn't have heard or seen Albert. They were both thinking about 'work' - one of them quite intensely.
The other one tried to, as he fled the scene, incontinently (that's when he really pissed himself).

He didn’t expect Cadosch to come back into the yard so soon and as he was so wrapped up in his work he didn’t hear him. He brushed against the fence in some way as he mutilated Annie.

I doubt Albert's two trips to the yard story, and hearing sounds just as he enters, and just as he exits.
The "I had an operation and it makes me pee a lot", was just a ruse.
Then there is the nonsense about not glancing sideways, which owing to thoughts about work he did not do, but otherwise he "would have been curious".

I firmly believe too that Richardson sat on the middle step to do some work on his shoe and that he looked over the yard and there was no possible area where a mutilated corpse could have remained hidden. And it didn’t because Annie was still alive[/B]. [B]I think that the idea of him missing a body to be 1000-1 and the chances of him lying to place himself at the scene of a mutilated corpse in possession of a knife equally remote.

He changed his story - he added to it, just like Matthew Packer. His reputation as a reliable witness should suffer a similar blow as did MP's.

I also believe that there’s a more than reasonable chance that Elizabeth Long saw Annie with her killer but she simply got her time wrong or perhaps both her a Cadosch combined were slightly out in their timing.

Highly questionable that she would have recalled Annie's face, days later at the mortuary.

The fence was around 5 ft 6.

How about we meet halfway - 4'9"?

29 Hanbury Street was not a brothel.

So Jack not only killed in daylight hours, he did it while trapped in a backyard?
And why did Amelia make a song and dance about the leather apron?

The cellar lock was visible from the steps.

Where exactly was the cellar door located?

The fact that Annie hadn’t been seen for a few hours is irrelevant.

Undecided on that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No I mean JR observing the body. Suspect there was a whole row of sight-seer's, and they weren't a basketball team.

All we need to accept is that the fence was of such a height that a person of average height at the time, whatever that was, couldn’t see over the fence from a standing position but with effort (standing on tiptoes for example) could have seen.


I doubt Albert's two trips to the yard story, and hearing sounds just as he enters, and just as he exits.
The "I had an operation and it makes me pee a lot", was just a ruse.

But there’s no reason to disbelieve him. The police would have been free to check this of course.

Then there is the nonsense about not glancing sideways, which owing to thoughts about work he did not do, but otherwise he "would have been curious".

I really don’t understand the nitpicking on this point?

He changed his story - he added to it, just like Matthew Packer. His reputation as a reliable witness should suffer a similar blow as did MP's.

So of course we assume that he lied? There could have been a perfectly reasonable explanation for the difference which might not even have been down to him. If we applied this rigid criteria then we would dismiss out of hand most witnesses.

Highly questionable that she would have recalled Annie's face, days later at the mortuary.

But not impossible or every single identification witness would be summarily dismissed if the sighting wasn’t on the same day as the reporting.

How about we meet halfway - 4'9"?

I think that the fence would have been around Cadosch’s eye level.

So Jack not only killed in daylight hours, he did it while trapped in a backyard?
And why did Amelia make a song and dance about the leather apron?

She was asked about it and explained.

Where exactly was the cellar door located?

To his right where he could see it from the step, as he said. I can see absolutely nothing to doubt this and I credit the police as being at least above Clouseau levels in that if it couldn’t have been seen from the step they would have mentioned this.

Undecided on that.

Anyone is free to dismiss out of hand Cadosch as a witness of course but I can’t.

[Fisherman]

Anyone is free to dismiss out of hand Cadosch as a witness of course but I can’t.

To dismiss out of hand means to not even consider the various options, does it not?

If so, I am not dismissing Cadosch out of hand, but instead I am doing so after careful consideration.

[Joshua Rogan]

All we need to accept is that the fence was of such a height that a person of average height at the time, whatever that was, couldn’t see over the fence from a standing position but with effort (standing on tiptoes for example) could have seen.

Or perhaps standing on the door steps?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Then there is the nonsense about not glancing sideways, which owing to thoughts about work he did not do, but otherwise he "would have been curious".

I really don’t understand the nitpicking on this point?

It's the opposite of nitpicking.
What Cadosch is suggesting is not really compatible with how memory and attention work together.
Can you remember anything you've been vaguely aware of but did not turn your attention to?
Unlikely; If there is no conscious experience of an event, it cannot be recalled.
The fall against the fence sound cannot have been background noise to Cadosch, because otherwise he forms no recallable memory of it.
If he does give it conscious attention, he very likely looks across.
He seems not to have done so, therefore I have doubts about his testimony.

So Jack not only killed in daylight hours, he did it while trapped in a backyard?
And why did Amelia make a song and dance about the leather apron?

She was asked about it and explained.

Are you sure? Who brought up the subject?

Baxter: Did you say anything about a leather apron?
Amelia: Yes, my son wears one when he works in the cellar.

Where had the apron been lying, for weeks?

Would you have been curious as to why Jack not only killed in daylight hours, but did so while trapped in a backyard, if I hadn't brought your attention to these questions?

Anyone is free to dismiss out of hand Cadosch as a witness of course but I can’t.

Is that what you're suggesting I've done?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Or perhaps standing on the door steps?

Was there not a throng of voyeurs, vying for a glimpse of the scene?
Richardson would have been lucky to get such a good spot, I would presume.

[Joshua Rogan]

Was there not a throng of voyeurs, vying for a glimpse of the scene?
Richardson would have been lucky to get such a good spot, I would presume.

Well he would have had to stand on the steps to get into the yard in the first place.