Was Israel Schwartz a form of Patsy

[Joshua Rogan]

The was no such thing as universal publicly synchronised time back then. Kozebrodski was quoted as saying, "about twenty minutes to one", so he didn't actually know the time anyway.

Quoting peoples notion of time is useless, be it Issac K or Deimshitz. The sequence of events can only be measured by taking ALL the witness accounts together and forming a timeline that works regardless of what time each indivaul claimed it was.

I absolutely agree with the thrust of your point, however it's worth noting that Louis was (I think) the one witness to give a verifiable source for his time (according to the Morning Advertiser he "noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street").

Incidentally I've just come across a photo from the 1880's of Commercial Road East, showing Harris' shop (82-84) and the entrance to Berner St on the right in the foreground. I can't actually see a clock, but it is a little blurry. Further on is no.100, the tall building at the entrance to Batty St, from where Dr Blackwell was summoned.

http://www.stgitehistory.org.uk/media/commercialroad1899.html#11

[JeffHamm]

>>Your belief requires that I assume all 4 men were incorrect by over 20 minutes. Seems unlikely, doesn't it.<<

Your believe that the police took twenty minutes to fetch Dr Blackwell is unbelievable, as is Kosebrodski running around for 20 minutes not alerting anyone, particularly Mortimer, Brown and Goldstein, really stretches creditability. Not to mention his taking 20 minutes to find Lamb.

And all of these only need to be considered if you accept the notion that, in order to direct attention away from the Jewish population of club members, Schwartz is given a "cover story" to tell the police that Stride's killer had an accomplice (pipeman) with a Jewish name (Lipski). Sure, we now know that through Anderson's knowledge of the area that was more likely shouted at Schwartz and not pipeman, but that just goes to show two things:

1) Schwartz's report to the police actually directs attention towards, not away from, a Jewish offender, therefore increasing the chances the club might come under suspicion,
and
2) the police, despite that, did not use it as an excuse to shut down the club

Personally, that first point of fact, that Schwartz's initial statement does exactly the opposite of what the "cover up" claims is the motive for the cover up, skewers it as a hypothesis because it is logically self contradictory. All the debates that follow, which also tend to skewer it, really are unnecessary but as is born out, they also confirm there was no attempt at an elaborate cover up.

- Jeff

[drstrange169]

>>" I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."<<

That he went towards Grove Street is confirmed by Spooner and Brown.
That he was not alone is confirmed by Spooner sand Brown.
That it happened after Deimshitz arrived back is confirmed by Spooner, Brown and Kosebrodski.
That Diemshitz's cart was heard after she closed her door is confirmed by Mrs Mortimer.
That nothing was happening outside the club just before that is confirmed by Goldstein.
That the police arrived 5 minutes approx. after Spooner is confirmed by Spooner, the police and the medical men.
That Kosebrodski joined up with Eagle is confirmed by PC Lamb.

That all this happened twenty minutes earlier, is disputed by Mortimer, Goldstein, Spooner (in part), the police, the medical men, Lave, Eagle, Letchford's sister and Brown.

[drstrange169]

>> ...Louis was (I think) the one witness to give a verifiable source...<<

Correct. What we don't know is how the time on Harris's clock was compared to every other witnesses notion of the time. Which is why we need to go by descriptions of events rather than the perceived times witnesses thought it was.

[drstrange169]

Spot on Jeff, if you are going to cover things up you don't cast doubt on your own cover up, which is precisely what Schwartz, Wess, Kosebrodski, Lave and Eagle did.

Also the club's newspaper was a propaganda one. If Schwartz was a club plant, the paper would be milking his story for all it was worth, accusing the authorities of deliberately suppressing vital evidence.

[JeffHamm]

Spot on Jeff, if you are going to cover things up you don't cast doubt on your own cover up, which is precisely what Schwartz, Wess, Kosebrodski, Lave and Eagle did.

Also the club's newspaper was a propaganda one. If Schwartz was a club plant, the paper would be milking his story for all it was worth, accusing the authorities of deliberately suppressing vital evidence.

True, they would be emphasizing Schwartz's cover story. The fact they didn't broadcast it indicates they were well aware that his statement drew attention towards them, and not away from them. The fact the authorities didn't, as a result, start to focus on them as a result was probably more of a relief than a plan.

- Jeff

[drstrange169]

Special Branch continued to focus on them, but they did before and well after Mrs Stride's murder, but that's a separate story.

[Michael W Richards]

True, they would be emphasizing Schwartz's cover story. The fact they didn't broadcast it indicates they were well aware that his statement drew attention towards them, and not away from them. The fact the authorities didn't, as a result, start to focus on them as a result was probably more of a relief than a plan.

- Jeff

Why would they do that if it was found that the story didn't hold water before the Inquest? As to why the authorities didn't return to looking at the club members, its likely because at that time most presumed that Sailor Man was the better id, there is no indication of his ethnicity to create a club connection, and because they assumed both kills were by one man. At least publicly.

[Harry D]

Spot on Jeff, if you are going to cover things up you don't cast doubt on your own cover up, which is precisely what Schwartz, Wess, Kosebrodski, Lave and Eagle did.

Also the club's newspaper was a propaganda one. If Schwartz was a club plant, the paper would be milking his story for all it was worth, accusing the authorities of deliberately suppressing vital evidence.

Unless of course part of his statement got lost in translation, or alternatively Schwartz (or rather those who put him up to it) were deliberating obfuscating the facts.

Also the club's newspaper was a propaganda one. If Schwartz was a club plant, the paper would be milking his story for all it was worth, accusing the authorities of deliberately suppressing vital evidence.

Couldn't you make that point irrespective if Schwartz was telling the truth?

[JeffHamm]

Why would they do that if it was found that the story didn't hold water before the Inquest? As to why the authorities didn't return to looking at the club members, its likely because at that time most presumed that Sailor Man was the better id, there is no indication of his ethnicity to create a club connection, and because they assumed both kills were by one man. At least publicly.

The police aren't likely to have informed the club of that. And, if they were trying to create a cover story, they would have started right away to lay the ground work and continue to do what they could to push the investigation away from the Jewish club by telling everyone the police should be looking for this broad shouldered man and his pipe carrying friend Lipski, because there's nothing more effective in diverting attention away form the Jewish Men's club than implicating a man with a Jewish name in the murder. They weren't to know that their cunning plan would soon be undermined when Anderson turned the tables and re-direct Lipski towards Schwartz. Remember, Anderson's realization that Schwartz must have been mistaken as to whom it was directed to only came later in time, so in between the club is going to try and establish their cover story. And also remember, the police did search for Lipski's in the area, so when that was happening the club had every reason to believe Schwartz's story was taken seriously by the police. And we don't know that the police lost confidence in Schwartz, or why he didn't testify at the inquest. It might just have been that they decided Lawende was the better witness, maybe simply because he could speak English.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Unless of course part of his statement got lost in translation, or alternatively Schwartz (or rather those who put him up to it) were deliberating obfuscating the facts.

My understanding is that the translator for Schwartz was from the club. Schwartz could have been reciting his memoirs of the homeland while the translator just gave the club story.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

My understanding is that the translator for Schwartz was from the club. Schwartz could have been reciting his memoirs of the homeland while the translator just gave the club story.

- Jeff

Its supposed that Wess translated for him, as he did for Goldstein. And as an aside, what Anderson says about these cases in its entirety is subject to scrutiny anyway, the definitive supposition they were seeking a Jew, the reason for his "leave" and why he had to be summoned back from Paris, not Switzerland, ..there are lots of instances when what Anderson says.."he only thought he knew".

[Michael W Richards]

Ive re-read some of the posts here to see why the most basic truths about the statements concerning the Berner St murder seem to elude so many, and I do notice something that may be a cause for that. A cover-up, conspiracy, mutual agreement to present a story, isn't something that requires a lot of work. Or time. Louis and Morris may have decided on the spot what they would say, and Israels statement didn't come in until Sunday night.

This isn't some well though out deception that requires all parties to buy into it, its a spur of the moment call based on the immediately needed strategy. By club people who are paid by the club. Its why Louis and Morris and Lave disagree with the other club members that said they were by the body at 12:40-12:45, why would that group need to spin this event? They wouldn't. Only the people making a living there, and perhaps the ones that saw this as a potential PR disaster for Socialist clubs across London.

[Sam Flynn]

Only the people making a living there, and perhaps the ones that saw this as a potential PR disaster for Socialist clubs across London.

I'm not sure that many people made a living there, and those that did could no doubt have continued to do so by other means. We're talking about very industrious and resourceful people, who'd already survived all kinds of hardship and struggles on their way to London, and no doubt in London itself. Be that as it may, I sincerely doubt that too many folks present that night thought that this might be a PR disaster for their own club, never mind every such club in London.

[drstrange169]

>> As to why the authorities didn't return to looking at the club members, its likely because at that time most presumed that Sailor Man was the better id<<

We know up till, at least late November, police were circulating Schwartz's description to the police stations across the country.