Was Israel Schwartz a form of Patsy

[Herlock Sholmes]

like would you believe some people use Schwartzs story to formulate that last half hour even though it wasnt deemed credible,

This is untrue of course. It’s been explained to you in very simple terms, using actual written evidence but you dishonestly persist in saying it. Truly desperate stuff Michael.

or that they suggest a serial mutilator killed Stride but didnt mutilate because an interruption that is nowhere in any evidence happened?

Truly the most ludicrous assertion in the history of the case? You really should desist on this one Michael. It’s embarrassing.

Hard to believe, right? People also think Mary Kelly was killed by a stranger trawling for street women, even though she was in her bed, undressed, in a dark and quiet room. Yea, its simply headshaking how people twist and ignore evidence.

I know. I mean a prostitute taking a client back to her room and then undressing. Tell me it ain’t so Michael!! And the room was dark. It must have been a conspiracy after all, the killer couldn’t possible have turned out the light so that people might think that Mary wasn’t in. Nah, of course not....it must have been a conspiracy.

Do you know that there are people here who believe that 4 witnesses who all agree with each others stories and times via independant interviews cannot be believed?

I’ve also heard people say that Elvis is still alive.

Instead they defer to witnesses that have no secondary validation at all..none. Can you imagine any serious investigator throwing out the validated times for ones without any corroboration? Seems counter productive to any truth, eh

Your witnesses have no validation. In fact I’ll say it again Michael because I know that it’s true.....you’re dishonest in your assessment of witnesses. You’re a cherry picker. And guess what....i now have another thread to ask the question that you have avoided more times than I can remember. Here we go......put your hand over your eyes Michael.....

WHY IS IT THAT WHEN LOOKING AT SPOONERS EVIDENCE YOU ABSOLUTELY DELIBERATELY IGNORE THE FACT THAT HE SAID THAT HE’D ARRIVED AT THE YARD 5 MINUTES BEFORE LAMB BUT YOU EMPHASISE HIS ESTIMATED 12.35. EVERYONE CAN SEE WHICH OF THE TWO IS MOST VALID SO WHY DO YOU SETTLE ON THE LESS BELIEVABLE ONE? YOU WOULDN'T BE CHERRYPICKING WOULD YOU MICHAEL?

OH YEAH.....OF COURSE YOU WOULD.

[Michael W Richards]

But he’s looney Michael. Pure invention that can be dismissed without wasting a second of thinking time.

POT CALLING KETTLE.... Youre pure Trumpian in your denials...but people knew he fabricated, lied and misled anyway. Maybe you should keep that in mind.

Citing information that is within the confines of what Ive described over, and over, and over again is whats important here, as I said, I dont subscribe to his interpretations of what this all means,...Ive seen people come up with wild ideas even after staring with accepted facts...like would you believe some people use Schwartzs story to formulate that last half hour even though it wasnt deemed credible, or that they suggest a serial mutilator killed Stride but didnt mutilate because an interruption that is nowhere in any evidence happened? Hard to believe, right? People also think Mary Kelly was killed by a stranger trawling for street women, even though she was in her bed, undressed, in a dark and quiet room. Yea, its simply headshaking how people twist and ignore evidence.

Do you know that there are people here who believe that 4 witnesses who all agree with each others stories and times via independant interviews cannot be believed? Instead they defer to witnesses that have no secondary validation at all..none. Can you imagine any serious investigator throwing out the validated times for ones without any corroboration? Seems counter productive to any truth, eh?

[Herlock Sholmes]

From Richard Jones Interview with criminologist Randy Williams, June 2017...

"In any case, the theory I have developed surrounds a group of men I often refer to as the “Unholy Trinity” having committed the killings as a form of Socialist/Anarchist propaganda under the aegis of one of that political system’s founders and most furious proponents. Three of these men can be directly linked to the Stride murder, where they “found” her body at the club stewarded by one and supported by the fourth, and were all arrested together for other violent crimes less than six months after the Double Event. One of the assaults they were arrested for that day took place on the very spot where Stride had been killed, just inside the gates of the International Working Men’s Educational Club!

This led me to the leader of that group of 3 men – Louis Diemschutz.

He claimed to have found the body of Elizabeth Stride just outside his home on the premises of the club where he was steward and where he lived with his wife Anna Sarah. Historically, many murderers have pretended to “find” the body of their victim because they couldn’t wait to see the results and/or they wished to insert themselves into the investigation. In this case, it was a bit of both, although primarily the latter, as well as a desire to draw the majority of the police to the first murder scene, leaving the streets much less patrolled to make things easier for his accomplices to commit the second.

"I’ll start with my first suspect, Louis Diemschutz, whom I refer to as the “Jack of Hearts” and whom I consider to be the ringleader of the operation, (his surname which, by the way, I believe was a pseudonym meaning “Protector of Noble Women” or “Protector of Smoke” in Russian and German). I have found at least 12 different ways he spelled his name, perhaps because he couldn’t remember from one time to the next how he had spelled it before, or perhaps as a method of preventing police from connecting him from one incident to the next. In any case, he was born in Russia and a traveller in costume jewellery, which will become important to my theory later; Tabram was shopping for costume jewellery at the time of her death, and Chapman was also known to buy and resell costume jewellery for extra cash.

He made many different and conflicting statements to newspapers and police regarding the position and contents of Stride’s hands (and indeed if he had taken any note at all of their position – he said he didn’t at one point of the Stride inquest, then turned around and gave a detailed description of their position and contents at another point), who touched or lifted her and when, the grapes, who ran where and when, what I call the “phony pony” story, the shaving off of his beard between the Double Event Sunday and his appearance at the inquest Tuesday, his knowledge of details he shouldn’t or couldn’t have known if he were truly innocent, etc.

My second suspect was young Isaac M. Kozebrodski (Kozebrodsky, Kozebrodske, Kosebrodski, Kozenbrodske, Kozeldrodske, Kohenbrodski, Gilyarovsky and “Isaacs”), a Polish-born 17-year-old machinist (he also claimed at trial to be a tailor) and International Working Men’s Educational Club member who once lived very close-by Mary Jane Kelly near the gas works in Stepney. I refer to Kozebrodski as the “Jack of Spades (Knives). Kozebrodski was arrested along with Diemschutz in the Socialist Riot of 1889 for assault on a number of people, including a policeman, whom he beat with a stick.

My third suspect is Samuel Friedman (Freedman, Friedenthal), a cap-blocker or hat shaper/maker, later listed in 1891 as a 47-year-old Polish tailor with a shop very close to the IWMEC. Friedman was also arrested in the same incident and, like Kozebrodski, happened to be at the club when Diemschutz “found” Liz Stride’s murdered body, and was instructed by Diemschutz to run for the police. This fact was not mentioned by Diemschutz nor Wolf Wess at the Stride inquest, but is mentioned in Diemschutz’ much more detailed account of the incident in the IWMEC’s Hebrew-language newspaper Der Arbeiter Fraynd (The Worker’s Friend). I believe Friedman to be the man smoking the clay pipe seen by Israel Schwartz as well as the last man seen speaking to Catherine Eddowes by Joseph Lawende, Joseph Hyam Levy and Harry Harris. Schwartz saw: a man age, 35; ht., 5 ft 11in; comp., fresh; hair, light brown; dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat, wide brim; had a clay pipe in his hand Lawende saw: a man Age 30 to 35. Height 5ft. 7in., with brown hair and big moustache, dressed respectably. Wore a pea jacket, muffler and a cloth cap with a peak of the same material."

Im posting this to demsonstrate that others have looked right where Im looking, and definitive evidence aside, its a plausible position that we cannot rely on the veracity of the club staff statements.

I may not subscribe to the premise this investigator and his team come up with, but its clear that suspisions about their truthfulness did not begin, nor will they end, with me.

But he’s looney Michael. Pure invention that can be dismissed without wasting a second of thinking time.

[Michael W Richards]

I forgot this bit.....suggesting as I have that the Club are referred to in the GSG.

"The second murder, at Mitre Square, took place just in front of the Duke Street Synagogue run by Dr. Adler, despised by Prince Kropotkin and by the club’s members – the same synagogue at which Diemschutz and his club members assembled and were turned away by Chief Rabbi Adler just before the Socialist riot of March 1889, where he, Isaac Kozebrodski and Samuel Friedman – all three of whom were present at the “finding” of Liz Stride’s body – were arrested for violence against a boy and various adults, and then dragging a policeman to the very spot Liz Stride was found inside the club gates and injuring his leg with a kick after beating him with a club. Mrs. Diemschutz – who was also present when her husband found Stride – also participated in the assault on P.C. Joseph Frost by beating him with her hair broom.

One of the other adults that were beaten was an enemy of the IWMEC named Israel Sunshine, who lived in the Wentworth Model Dwellings at #119 Goulston Street!!"

[Michael W Richards]

From Richard Jones Interview with criminologist Randy Williams, June 2017...

"In any case, the theory I have developed surrounds a group of men I often refer to as the “Unholy Trinity” having committed the killings as a form of Socialist/Anarchist propaganda under the aegis of one of that political system’s founders and most furious proponents. Three of these men can be directly linked to the Stride murder, where they “found” her body at the club stewarded by one and supported by the fourth, and were all arrested together for other violent crimes less than six months after the Double Event. One of the assaults they were arrested for that day took place on the very spot where Stride had been killed, just inside the gates of the International Working Men’s Educational Club!

This led me to the leader of that group of 3 men – Louis Diemschutz.

He claimed to have found the body of Elizabeth Stride just outside his home on the premises of the club where he was steward and where he lived with his wife Anna Sarah. Historically, many murderers have pretended to “find” the body of their victim because they couldn’t wait to see the results and/or they wished to insert themselves into the investigation. In this case, it was a bit of both, although primarily the latter, as well as a desire to draw the majority of the police to the first murder scene, leaving the streets much less patrolled to make things easier for his accomplices to commit the second.

"I’ll start with my first suspect, Louis Diemschutz, whom I refer to as the “Jack of Hearts” and whom I consider to be the ringleader of the operation, (his surname which, by the way, I believe was a pseudonym meaning “Protector of Noble Women” or “Protector of Smoke” in Russian and German). I have found at least 12 different ways he spelled his name, perhaps because he couldn’t remember from one time to the next how he had spelled it before, or perhaps as a method of preventing police from connecting him from one incident to the next. In any case, he was born in Russia and a traveller in costume jewellery, which will become important to my theory later; Tabram was shopping for costume jewellery at the time of her death, and Chapman was also known to buy and resell costume jewellery for extra cash.

He made many different and conflicting statements to newspapers and police regarding the position and contents of Stride’s hands (and indeed if he had taken any note at all of their position – he said he didn’t at one point of the Stride inquest, then turned around and gave a detailed description of their position and contents at another point), who touched or lifted her and when, the grapes, who ran where and when, what I call the “phony pony” story, the shaving off of his beard between the Double Event Sunday and his appearance at the inquest Tuesday, his knowledge of details he shouldn’t or couldn’t have known if he were truly innocent, etc.

My second suspect was young Isaac M. Kozebrodski (Kozebrodsky, Kozebrodske, Kosebrodski, Kozenbrodske, Kozeldrodske, Kohenbrodski, Gilyarovsky and “Isaacs”), a Polish-born 17-year-old machinist (he also claimed at trial to be a tailor) and International Working Men’s Educational Club member who once lived very close-by Mary Jane Kelly near the gas works in Stepney. I refer to Kozebrodski as the “Jack of Spades (Knives). Kozebrodski was arrested along with Diemschutz in the Socialist Riot of 1889 for assault on a number of people, including a policeman, whom he beat with a stick.

My third suspect is Samuel Friedman (Freedman, Friedenthal), a cap-blocker or hat shaper/maker, later listed in 1891 as a 47-year-old Polish tailor with a shop very close to the IWMEC. Friedman was also arrested in the same incident and, like Kozebrodski, happened to be at the club when Diemschutz “found” Liz Stride’s murdered body, and was instructed by Diemschutz to run for the police. This fact was not mentioned by Diemschutz nor Wolf Wess at the Stride inquest, but is mentioned in Diemschutz’ much more detailed account of the incident in the IWMEC’s Hebrew-language newspaper Der Arbeiter Fraynd (The Worker’s Friend). I believe Friedman to be the man smoking the clay pipe seen by Israel Schwartz as well as the last man seen speaking to Catherine Eddowes by Joseph Lawende, Joseph Hyam Levy and Harry Harris. Schwartz saw: a man age, 35; ht., 5 ft 11in; comp., fresh; hair, light brown; dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat, wide brim; had a clay pipe in his hand Lawende saw: a man Age 30 to 35. Height 5ft. 7in., with brown hair and big moustache, dressed respectably. Wore a pea jacket, muffler and a cloth cap with a peak of the same material."

Im posting this to demsonstrate that others have looked right where Im looking, and definitive evidence aside, its a plausible position that we cannot rely on the veracity of the club staff statements.

I may not subscribe to the premise this investigator and his team come up with, but its clear that suspisions about their truthfulness did not begin, nor will they end, with me.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Jeff.

Not Schwartz, in my opinion, if you recall it was Deimschitz & Kozebrodski who ran along Fairclough shouting "murder".
We chewed this article over last year with Tom, if I recall he felt the same as you but that scenario just doesn't fit. Schwartz doesn't say he was shouting anything, and why would he, he didn't witness a murder, also there's no suggestion the Pipeman was shouting either.
The only people who ran east on Fairclough shouting "murder", "police" were Deimscitz & Kozebrodski.

wicky in the house! where you been dude?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jeff.

Not Schwartz, in my opinion, if you recall it was Deimschitz & Kozebrodski who ran along Fairclough shouting "murder".
We chewed this article over last year with Tom, if I recall he felt the same as you but that scenario just doesn't fit. Schwartz doesn't say he was shouting anything, and why would he, he didn't witness a murder, also there's no suggestion the Pipeman was shouting either.
The only people who ran east on Fairclough shouting "murder", "police" were Deimscitz & Kozebrodski.

He says "2 Jews", he doesn't identify them, and Louis says "Issac[s]" not Issac Kozebrodski. In fact Issac K says Louis sent him out, not that he went with Louis. And he says that happened around 12:45. 3 other witnesses stated they also were there, with others, at around that same time.

Louis spoke about 2 search parties, one with Eagle and one with him, he didnt mention sending Issac K out...so that's at least 1 "search" party that wasn't recorded. Who knows who else may have left the club when they heard about the commotion. We only know the names of many of the men that stayed and were interviewed.

I think Goldstein looking in and then walking past suggests he may have seen a gathering just inside the gates and didn't want to get into any controversy, so he kept going.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

Not Schwartz, in my opinion, if you recall it was Deimschitz & Kozebrodski who ran along Fairclough shouting "murder".
We chewed this article over last year with Tom, if I recall he felt the same as you but that scenario just doesn't fit. Schwartz doesn't say he was shouting anything, and why would he, he didn't witness a murder, also there's no suggestion the Pipeman was shouting either.
The only people who ran east on Fairclough shouting "murder", "police" were Deimscitz & Kozebrodski.

Good point, which I see was also made by Darryl Kenyon above. The Echo article doesn't mention any shouting, and as it placed the time at 12:45, about 15 minutes prior to Diemshutz's arrival on the scene, it struck me as a different event. However, I think I'm leaning towards this being another example of the unreliability of the press reports. It seems most likely this is the known post-discovery activity, which has conflated one of the estimated times for the murder (12:45) with the later activity of the two club members looking for police around 1 o'clock. I don't think Fairclough would be a route to Schwartz's house either, and he did say he ran as far as the railway arch, so there are problems with trying to reconcile this with Schwartz as well - it doesn't quite fit Schwartz, and it doesn't quite fit Deimschitz & Kozebrodski either. But again, the press has all sorts of details that seem to be embellishments and which don't quite fit when compared to more reliable, or at least better corroborated, sources.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

That's an interesting thread. They mention this interesting story found in the Echo (Oct 1, 1888):

------------------------------
A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.


In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally [?] fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.
------------------------------

And that seems to relate to Schwartz's story, where Schwartz would be the man pursued, and "Pipeman" the pursuer. Interestingly, it also indicates that Pipeman must have been identified, though the story indicates his name was not remembered (other than he was not a club member). The time also corresponds to the 12:45 time of Schwartz's story. What I'm most interested in, though, is who is the person who is supposed to have witnessed this pursuit?

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.

Not Schwartz, in my opinion, if you recall it was Deimschitz & Kozebrodski who ran along Fairclough shouting "murder".
We chewed this article over last year with Tom, if I recall he felt the same as you but that scenario just doesn't fit. Schwartz doesn't say he was shouting anything, and why would he, he didn't witness a murder, also there's no suggestion the Pipeman was shouting either.
The only people who ran east on Fairclough shouting "murder", "police" were Deimscitz & Kozebrodski.

[Darryl Kenyon]

That said, why didn't Spooner see this? Or the guy buying his supper?

Spooner possibly saw this and it was a garbled account by the echo - Edward Spooner, I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back.

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting quote Jeff......"Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road". How long did it take before the police and then the medical officer were onsite, I believe that Blackwell arrived at 12:16 ish. That means from the time that the men found a policeman, using Louis's arrival time of 1am, until a medical expert is roused from sleep, dresses, hurries down to the scene, is a maximum of 16 minutes. Finding the policeman, him calling for help, someone being sent to Blackwells house. Him waking up, splashing some water on his face and dressing hurriedly, heading down to the scene...that's a lot in 16 minutes. And it assumes that the men seeking help found a policeman almost immediately...something I don't believe is supported within the evidence they gave later. Presuming that Louis did arrive at 1. Now, if men were sent out before 1 and arrived back with police about 5 minutes past the hour, it can make sense.

We do have 4 people who said they were by the body, within 5 minutes of each other, at 12:40-12:45.

I think one real obstacle in this case is that people want to believe the more flamboyant claim. They want to believe Israel Schwartz over 4 other witnesses who said they were by the body, and one who might have been at her door to the street at the time. Perhaps its because they like this BSM as Jack and look for his doppelganger in other crimes.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

That report in the Echo is interesting though, it has (presumably) Schwartz running along Fairclough St. I mentioned in another post somewhere that Schwartz might have witnessed a kerfuffle on a neighboring street, The Cherry Tree pub on Backchurch Lane for example. That's right on the junction of Fairclough!
Think I've just developed a pet theory, and lo, today I finally become a true Ripperologist.
That said, why didn't Spooner see this? Or the guy buying his supper?

[JeffHamm]

There's a very small paragraph in a regional paper that describes what is clearly the same incident, it hasn't got any names or much detail, but has the female shouting at the attacker, who runs off perused by a witness.

That's interesting. Hmmm, [wild speculation] What if Schwartz sees an attack on Stride, where he says he hears her shout 3 times, if not very loud, and Schwartz flees, pipeman in tow, and someone sees this, but doesn't spot BS himself - i.e. hears a woman yell, but doesn't actually see her, perhaps looks after hearing the shout and sees the above chase scene. BS kills Stride, but above witness calls out of the window "Are you ok?" type thing, and BS, getting nervous someone is going to check on her, exits the location. A different take on the "Jackus interuptus" vein of thinking. [/wild speculation]. No, I don't buy that either, but it was fun.

- Jeff

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

There's a very small paragraph in a regional paper that describes what is clearly the same incident, it hasn't got any names or much detail, but has the female shouting at the attacker, who runs off perused by a witness.

[JeffHamm]

Good find Jeff. Haven't come across this before.

It was the first time I've seen those two (found reference to one of them in the old thread mentioned earlier) so I went to see what else was in there. Again, it's press, so the details could be off by quite a bit (i.e. Schwartz's story may be being told, but by the time the press hears it it may be a few times in the telling - and the "witness" of the pursuit may have been Schwartz, and a jumbling of Schwartz having possibly seen Stride's murderer and his belief that Pipeman was involved, etc )

- Jeff