Was Israel Schwartz a form of Patsy

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi DK
I noticed you haven't responded to my post #18. not sure if you saw it or not. : )

Abby you make three points - So are you saying the club or any of its members had nothing to do with strides murder or her body being found in their yard but decided to come up with this conspiracy anyway over some general concern they would be blamed?
Yes, A faked story or an embellished one.
exactly-so if they were going to put up a "patsy" they would have picked someone who understood English so he could relate exactly and clearly what the anti semite, couldn't have been a jew/club member "killer" said.
See post 35
I agree-or any of the other witnesses that night that all describe basically the same man-a man wearing a peaked cap. which makes his story all the more truthful and also that he probably saw the ripper.
This is a fair point we have a general outline of what Lawende saw - "age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor." that is from a report by Swanson, others differ and Schwartz - age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.
There are similarities but I would be more inclined to believe Schwartz if there was a specific IE he saw a red handkerchief round the neck [sorry I should have made this clear, of what i meant in a previous post].
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

>>If you do believe Schwartz then James Brown must have just missed all the commotion as he was stood on the corner of Berner/Fairclough streets for three or four minutes as he saw no BSM nor Schwartz running down the street the same with Fanny Mortimer as she was back and forth from her door and Leon Goldstien as he passed down the street neither did anyone see or hear anything from the chandlers shop or the beer house which were both open at the time and not far away.<<

To quote Abby, "Bingo!"

So you agree that the time is tight and nobody can corroborate Schwartz apart from Pipeman who there is no concrete evidence to say came forward.
Regards Darryl

[drstrange169]

>>On this matter, Anderson and Warren's opinion carries no more weight than yours, mine, or anyone else's. Really?<<

Indisputably.

Anderson and Warren were not there, Schwartz was. By definition they cannot have more information about the incident than Schwartz. He is ground zero.



>> So if these reports are correct and Schwartz was chased off by a member of the club then he is obviously bsm which means the club knows who he is but declines to say. A far bigger conspiracy than what i am suggesting.<<

No.

Schwartz says he was chased by "Pipeman" not B.S.M. And he isn't even sure whether he was chased or whether the Pipeman took flight too.



>> no reports [what i am aware of], suggest he was an orthodox Jew <<

If the reporter didn't know what an orthodox Jew was compared to, the more common, non orthodox, there wouldn't be, just a story about a man in theatrical dress.

Tell me what does an actor look like?



>> So how come they specifically say in the same article The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted [Schwartz] <<

Because they were not talking about Schwartz, they were talking about a prisoner, as the article says if you read it in context.

"The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes.This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquires to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted."

Of course, the next day The Star did back track a bit, but that's another story. On the day they milked Schwartz for all they could.


>>Doesn't sound much to me like they are pushing a sensational scoop.<<

Headlines like, INFORMATION THAT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT ... SAW THE WHOLE THING, state otherwise.

[drstrange169]

>>So you agree that the time is tight and nobody can corroborate Schwartz apart from Pipeman who there is no concrete evidence to say came forward.<<

That's the conundrum, take Schwartz out and everything else fits. I have no answer that satisfies me about the whole incident. My current theory is Schwartz's timing was wrong.

[Joshua Rogan]

Plus it was said that Schwartz had a theatrical appearance , nothing about looking like an orthodox Jew.

Didn't Abberline describe Schwartz as having a "strong jewish appearance"? Hence his belief that the cry of "Lipski" was aimed at Schwartz.

[Joshua Rogan]

Woolf Wess claimed a club member chased someone (Schwartz?) down the street that night, which blows away any club albi as far as Schwartz was concerned. It also kills the unsupported notion that Wess translated for Schwartz to the police.

Are you sure? If you're referring to this report from the Echo 1 Oct, he says someone who was not a club member chased after the murderer;

"In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club.....The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body."

[drstrange169]

>>Are you sure? If you're referring to this report from the Echo 1 Oct, he says someone who was not a club member chased after the murderer;<<

Err ... apparently not;-) My apologies.

Luckily the point still stands, he had know knowledge of Schwartz, as his tale confirms.

[Harry D]

I agree-or any of the other witnesses that night that all describe basically the same man-a man wearing a peaked cap. which makes his story all the more truthful and also that he probably saw the ripper.

Well, peaked hats were in vogue at the time, so I don't think we can read too much into that. Also, IF it was a conspiracy they could've based their description of BS Man on someone who was hanging around the club that night.

[Sam Flynn]

I misread the question as "Was Israel Schwartz a form of Pasty". Sorry!

[Abby Normal]

Abby you make three points - So are you saying the club or any of its members had nothing to do with strides murder or her body being found in their yard but decided to come up with this conspiracy anyway over some general concern they would be blamed?
Yes, A faked story or an embellished one.
exactly-so if they were going to put up a "patsy" they would have picked someone who understood English so he could relate exactly and clearly what the anti semite, couldn't have been a jew/club member "killer" said.
See post 35
I agree-or any of the other witnesses that night that all describe basically the same man-a man wearing a peaked cap. which makes his story all the more truthful and also that he probably saw the ripper.
This is a fair point we have a general outline of what Lawende saw - "age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor." that is from a report by Swanson, others differ and Schwartz - age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.
There are similarities but I would be more inclined to believe Schwartz if there was a specific IE he saw a red handkerchief round the neck [sorry I should have made this clear, of what i meant in a previous post].
Regards Darryl

hi DK

Abby you make three points - So are you saying the club or any of its members had nothing to do with strides murder or her body being found in their yard but decided to come up with this conspiracy anyway over some general concern they would be blamed?

Yes, A faked story or an embellished one.

That's even crazier than them coming up with a cover up conspiracy because one of the members were involved!

exactly-so if they were going to put up a "patsy" they would have picked someone who understood English so he could relate exactly and clearly what the anti semite, couldn't have been a jew/club member "killer" said.

See post 35

no I think IF they would have done a conspiracy they would have picked someone who would have been able to make it stone cold clear, which it obviously wasn't as many of the police initially thought different things about who yelled what and to whom.

There are similarities but I would be more inclined to believe Schwartz if there was a specific IE he saw a red handkerchief round the neck [sorry I should have made this clear, of what i meant in a previous post][/B].

there was something specific-what was on top of BS mans head-a peaked cap. just like the other witnesses saw. and besides lawende got a front side look, schwarts trailed behind BS man and only got a passing glimpse as he skidaddled on by. a hanky around someones neck, more than likely obscured by a jacket could have been easily missed.

[Abby Normal]

Well, peaked hats were in vogue at the time, so I don't think we can read too much into that. Also, IF it was a conspiracy they could've based their description of BS Man on someone who was hanging around the club that night.

Hi Harry
that was my quote-I think DK jacked it up somehow.

Well, peaked hats were in vogue at the time, so I don't think we can read too much into that

well apparently Abberline read into the suspect wearing a peaked cap quite well. especially since all the relevant witnesses describe a man wearing a peaked cap!

Also, IF it was a conspiracy they could've based their description of BS Man on someone who was hanging around the club that night

yup-or simpler yet-just move her body out of the yard and be done with it. anything other than come up with some convoluted conspiracy story.
or simply tell the truth and assist the police-which they undoubtedly did.

[Abby Normal]

Didn't Abberline describe Schwartz as having a "strong jewish appearance"? Hence his belief that the cry of "Lipski" was aimed at Schwartz.

HI JR
yup. but in fairness to Dr Strange, whom DK was responding to, I think it might be a fair guess that someone who had a "strong Jewish appearance" and/or "theatrical" look may be Orthodox.

Either way, its obvious that Schwartz appearance made it obvious he was jewish (orthodox or not), and that BS man yelled it at him as a slur, which Abberline and his boots on the ground experience of the environment was able to eventually clear up.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Darryl,

Yes, good points. But if the police doubted his story I can see them saying "well, Israel you are fairly new to this country so let us explain what can happen to someone who lies to the police in a murder investigation." Club loyalty versus the consequences for a wife and new daughter? Tough call.

c.d.

Not really. self preservation and protecting ones family over club loyalty and truth over lies any day.

but I agree with your previous posts-especially that would the club really pick someone like Schwartz to be there point man in the scam? no way.

but its all basically a moot point anyway, because there is not one iota of evidence that either schwartz was lying or there was any club conspiracy/cover up- and frankly the idea is ridiculous.

[Abby Normal]

I misread the question as "Was Israel Schwartz a form of Pasty". Sorry!

LOL Sam. plus Schwartz was too big to just cover a nipple! (that's what pasty is commonly referred to as here in the states)

[Michael W Richards]

Except that's not what Schwartz initially reported to the police. If Schwartz was directed by the club to divert suspicion away from the Jewish population their "story" isn't going to be one where Schwartz starts off by saying JtR's accomplice was named Lipski. Home Office took that very seriously, and was sending letters to the police asking what efforts they had to track down anyone by the name of Lipski, and the police did search for people of that name. Their cover story, as originally told, directed suspicion towards a Jewish killer, not away from one. It was only through Abberline's questioning of Schwartz that he was able to determine that Schwartz was not positive that the shout of Lipski was directed at pipeman, and because Abberline knew it was used as a derogatory name towards Jews, that the police changed their minds. They still looked for Lipski's, just to make sure, but Schwartz's orginal testimony implicates a Jewish offender at least as an accomplice. It's exactly the opposite of the "club cover up" goal.

- Jeff

If you re-read what I said it could have been a reference to another man BSM was working with, indicating the arrival of a "Lipski" in the form of Schwartz. Lets remember that Israel said nothing directly to anyone official, he said what he said to an interpreter..who was likely Woolf, an acquaintance,..that translation may or may not have been a literal representation of Israels. The anti Jew sentiments were most visible in the areas where Jews resided, worked, attended meetings. The Lipksi remark to me is clearly directed at the only obviously Jewish person of the 3 people that Israels statement puts there, is intended as an insult, and is therefore more indicative of a local gentile with what were anti-Semitic attitudes. Just like the message at the Model Homes entrance.

A bunch of anarchist socialist Jews with a dead woman in their passageway would be very relieved to hear of an anti-Semitic gentile assaulting the murder victim off their property just before she is killed, the extremely fortuitous nature of that is enough to question its veracity.

Oh yeah,....and the simple fact that none of Israel Schwartz's statement is in any way shape or form associated with the hearing into how Liz Stride died. An assault on the victim within minutes of her being killed.. how can that not be relevant to the question of how she died?

I shouldn't have to tell you how. Its obvious. His story didn't pan out.