Full notes on Charles Cross/Lechmere

[Sally]

I will be very naughty and post up images of the death and marriage certificates later.

Thanks Lechmere, I'm sure we'd all like to see those.

[caz]

Caz
What I don't understand is why you Posted that on this thread instead of the one where his inquest testimony is being discused

Er, Lechmere, you are losing your grip mate. You started it, here on page 3 of this very thread:

I forgot about the post office/trade directory entries. With them that makes it about 90 times he used Lechmere and 1 time Cross, and the occasion when he was named as Cross the entry would have been made by his step father - the man who was not old enough to be his father, Thomas Cross.

The Essex Street School shows that he moved to Doveton Street on or just before 12th June. There are also entries for Betts Street school (just off Cable Street) where his children went to school before he moved to Doveton Street.

Oh I forgot he also used the name Cross when he reported to a police station after slipping past Mizen and after Paul fingered him in his press interview.
Oh and it seems he avoided giving his address at the inquest as well.
But there is nothing supicious to report.
All's well!

After that, Fisherman, Sally, Monty and John Bennett all responded before I did on that very subject.

What I don't understand is how anyone can read anything remotely suspicious into the fact that Cross stated no more than he was obliged to state at the inquest about where he could be found if needed.

Love,

Caz
X


　
　

[caz]

My own bold guess is that you have managed to understand that this is where the Lechmereians think that the omission to mention the address adds fuel to the suspicions about a desire on his behalf to keep wife and family and aquaintancies in the dark.

Well you know what they say, Fishy. There's no fuel like an old fuel.

I don't believe for a moment that the details he gave were designed, or could have been expected, to keep anyone 'in the dark' about the fact that he was the poor sod who had discovered Nichols. I expect he told his wife all about it, and said "Don't worry, love, I used my work name - Cross - so nobody should pester you or our little Lechmeres about it".

And I expect they were happy to keep it that way.

Love,

Caz
X

[Lechmere]

Caz
Keep yer hair on... this thread is about records relating to Charles Lechmere not whatever was said at the inquest. If you read the post you copied you will see I was talking about records.

[CitizenX]

I will be very naughty and post up images of the death and marriage certificates later.
I remember he was living at Mary Ann Street ( the address the rest of them were still living at in 1871) and I think the person who reported the death was a neighbour from the same street.
Mary Ann street cut across the bottom end of Berner Street and was I think one street north of Pinchin Street - they lived in Pinchin Street (then called Thomas Street) in 1861 and Thomas Cross's widow moved back to Pinchin Street after she remarried and was there in 1881.

It is pretty clear that this branch of the Lechmeres had strayed too far from the root for the rich ones to exert any control. If you were a younger son born to a large well off family then if you failed to take advantage of the head start you got in life then your offspring could rapidly fall down the social scale. That degree of family ruthlessness was the only way in which large estates could be maintained.
Charles Lechmere's grandfather - Charles Fox Lechmere (named after the famous Whig politician, he was born at the height of his political career) was clearly a waster who married beneath him and in turn his children immediately dropped down the social scale. Charles Fox Lechmere's brother inherited the rolling estates in Fownhope, Charles Fox's son John Lechmere (Charles Lechmere's father) became a boot maker. If I remember rightly another of John Lechmere's brothers ended up as a boot maker in London.

Nice Post...thanks!

[caz]

Caz
Keep yer hair on... this thread is about records relating to Charles Lechmere not whatever was said at the inquest. If you read the post you copied you will see I was talking about records.

You should have stuck to that topic then, you naughty boy, and not introduced the subject of what was or wasn't said at the inquest.

You can't expect others not to take issue with such comments, and I was only the latest of several who did.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Caz:

"I expect he told his wife all about it, and said "Don't worry, love, I used my work name - Cross - so nobody should pester you or our little Lechmeres about it"."

You ... EXPECT he did so?

WARNING - CONJECTURE - WARNING - CONJECTURE - WARNING - CONJECTURE - WARNING - CONJECTURE - WARNING

Or is this what "normal" people do? If you´re not sure, just have a guess ...

And now, let´s not spread non thread-related material here any more ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Scott Nelson]

I think it was intended as sarcasm.

[Fisherman]

I have to give it to you, Scott - when it comes to oneliners, you´re top notch.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Caz
For all you know I might be a naughty girl.
Conjecture warning!!!

[Lechmere]

I will put up images of the following later on:

Charles Allen Lechmere's birth entry - 5th October 1849, son of John Allen Lechmere (a bootmaker) and Maria Louisa Lechmere (formerly Roulson) of 28 Church Street, St Anne, Westminster.

The mother registered the birth which leaves open the possibility that the father had already disappeared.

Marriage of Thomas Cross to Maria Lechmere, 25th February 1858, in Whitechapel Registry Office.
Cross is a 23 year old police constable of 30 Leman Street - the son of another Thomas Cross, a bootmaker.
His wife was 32, a widow of 5 Holloway Street, Mile End Old Town. The daughter of Thomas Roulson, a deceased butler.

So Thomas Cross junior was only 14 years older than his new step son Charles Allen Lechmere, and was nearly ten years younger than his new wife.
I presume Thomas Cross lived in a section house in Leman Street.
Holloway Street was just south of Sion Square which is where Charles Allen Lechmere and his sister were living in 1859 when they were baptised, along presumably with Thomas Cross and and the new Maria Cross.
I believe I traced Thomas Cross's family background from this. He would have been born around 1835.

Thomas Cross's death entry for 18th December 1869. He died at 11 Mary Ann Street, a police constable aged 34.
The cause of death was:
'fatty degeneration - years
Dropsy 5 months
Uroemia 3 days
Certified'
The informant was Margaret Low of 14 Mary Ann Street (who signed with an X)

Contains confirmation of Thomas Cross's true age.

Marriage of Charles Allen Lechmere to Elizabeth Bostock, 3rd July 1870, in Christ Church, St George's in the East.
Charles Allen Lechmere was a 20 year old carman of Mary Ann Street. His father was John Allen Lechmere, a bootmaker.
Elizabteh Bostock, who signed by making a mark - X - was 21 and from Lower Gun Alley. Her father was Thomas Bay Bostock, a lighterman, who was also a witness and who also signed with a mark - X.

This marriage was only six and a half months after the death of Thomas Cross.
They were still living at the address in Mary Ann Street where Cross died. They were still living there with Maria Cross (ex Lechmere, ex Rouson) at the time of the 1871 census.

Marriage of Joseph Forsdike to Maria Louisa Cross, 29th July 1872, in St Jude's Church, Bethnal Green.
Joseph Forsdike was a 57 year old shoemaker of 3 Richardson Street. His father was Noah Forsdike, a carpenter.
Maria Louisa Cross was a 46 year old widow also of 3 Richardson Street. Her father was Thomas Roulson, a butler.
The witnesses were Charles Allen Lechmere and his wife Elizabeth (who again signed with a mark - X).

This was only 3 years after the death of Maria's second husband. Her first husband, John Lechmere (who was actually still alive) was almost exactly the same age as Maria. Her second husband was almost ten years younger and her third husband over ten years older.
I believe Forsdike was from Suffolk.

Joseph Forsdike's death entry for 10th December 1889. He died at 147 Cable Street, a master bootmaker aged 74 years.
He died of senility and bronchitis.
The informant was M Jane Lechmere, grand-daughter, also of 147 Cable Street.

The M Jane Lechmere is Mary Jane who was born in March 1875. She is listed in 1881 (in Pinchin Street) and 1891 (at the above Cable Street address) as living with her grandmother - Maria Forsdike. In 1901, shortly before Maria Forsdike died, they were still living together but by now Mary Jane had married. For some reason this child of Charles Allen and Elizabeth Lechmere was brought up by his mother.

[Monty]

Do we know when Charles Cross was sworn in as a Constable?

Monty

[Lechmere]

No - the police records are missing for his period of service, rather typically

[Monty]

Well not knowing the date, and going back from the 61 census, I did take the liberty of trawling through the MEPO records I have which started after 56. Took me a while but......

......You're right, not a single mention. So not in volume 2, must be volume 1.

Now if only I asked the question before I looked.

Monty

[Lechmere]

I checked a while back but I think a whole batch of metropolitan police records that correspond frustratingly with his period of service, is missing.