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  • #46
    Chris
    It is the same Sion Square.
    The baptism took place after Charles Lechmere's mother had married Thomas Cross, and his real father is acknowledged.
    His real father was living in Northamptonshire with a new family.

    Monty...
    "For him to have appeared at court he must have been summond, which would have been served at his address. Therefore his address would have been known prior to the inquest
    A fact which has been overlooked."


    I hasn't been overlooked at all.
    The presumption has been that he gave his address at the police station when he appeared on the Sunday evening and was immediately summoned to the inquest. There would have been no time to poast a summons as he would have been leaving for work at 3.30 in the morning.

    Monty you may have overlooked this...

    Post 43 of "Charles Lechmere, finally vindicated, proof?"

    "Monty
    If as seems most probable Lechmere appeared at a police station on the Sunday evening and appears at the inquest Monday morning, then it makes sense that his summons to attend was given to him in Person. I very much doubt it was posted to him.
    But what do you think?"



    Also Monty it is not a 'fact' that his address was known prior to the inquest. It is a presumption. We know it was known by the 3rd September, the day of the inquest. That is the only fact of which we can be sure.
    In my opinion it is likely that he gave his address when he was at the police station - but it isn't a fact.
    It is equally possible that he just turned up at the inquest first thing in the morning and they fitted him into the running order as he was clearly an important witness.

    On a different note...
    I very much doubt that a witness list was printed and available. It is more probale that a hand written running order was made available to the coroner.
    The numerous spelling mistakes with personal names and street addresses tells me that no list was available for general use.

    Sally
    It is a reasonable assumption that Charles Lechmere didn't give his address as only the Star recorded it.

    Comment


    • #47
      Lechmere,

      The address would have had to have been known for the correct completion of the summons.

      It has to either hold an address, an address the witness is known to frequent (trading address) or state 'no fixed abode'.

      Also the summons has to be sealed at court. As the court does not sit on a Sunday the sealing would have to have been on the Saturday. This due to the fact Cross appeared Monday. Ergo his address was known on Saturday.

      The serving could have been via post or served in person.

      He would not have been 'fitted in' as that is not how Coroners inquests work. The Coroner reads the witness statements and choses who he feel should attend. That is when he produces a list. Any inportant witnesses appearing after the setting of a list can be heard after an adjournement, which could take a period of time.

      I have served 4 summons in my time and prepare a fair few for sealing, last one being last Wednesday. Its part of my job.

      Monty
      Monty

      https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

      Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

      http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Chris Scott View Post
        Hi Velma
        Thanks for your kind comments :-)
        I will have a look and see if I can find anything...

        On another note, the address in the baptism record - 14 Sion Square - interested me. Is this the same Sion Square where Aaron Kosminski later lived?
        Chris
        whew, sort of makes you go "Huh" doesn't it?

        Thanks, Chris, I would appreciate it.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post

          Imagine it. Cross, the stepfather, though the interloper. But in his case, takes over as father. Mates, neighbours, workmates, would all admire it, taking on a family.
          I wouldn't put it past probability that he was known as ' that Cross boy' "Cross's boy" and didnt hear the whisper afterwards 'course, he ain't the real Dad- some bloke called Lechmere that was".
          Phil.
          Hi, Phil,
          You're spot-on here. Especially since the Lechmere father had taken off and deserted the family. It would be likely that the wife wanted to erase all signs of the loser. Happened in my family during the Civil War. When a great-great-grandfather was killed, my great-great-grandmother filed for his pension. Well, lo and behold, so did another woman, both claiming children. My great-great-grandmother remarried and her children went by the name of the stepfather until they married or left home. The family wanted to remove all evidence of the scoundrel.

          And I suspect that Cross-Lechmere was name dropping, or trying to, when he gave his name as Cross. Perhaps he considered his stepfather to have been more powerful and memorable than he really was.

          curious

          Comment


          • #50
            Monty
            Charles Lechmere will have had to have given his address at some point up to 3rs September that is for sure.
            When he did this is open to question.
            Your discourse on the issue of summonses is very interesting but I doubt you were in service in 1888.

            "Also the summons has to be sealed at court. As the court does not sit on a Sunday the sealing would have to have been on the Saturday. This due to the fact Cross appeared Monday. Ergo his address was known on Saturday.
            The serving could have been via post or served in person.
            He would not have been 'fitted in' as that is not how Coroners inquests work. The Coroner reads the witness statements and choses who he feel should attend. That is when he produces a list. Any inportant witnesses appearing after the setting of a list can be heard after an adjournement, which could take a period of time."


            You will of course be aware that Liz Stride was murdered in the early hours of Sunday morning, 30th September.
            When did her inquest commence?
            Don't bother looking it up - Monday 1st October.
            Witnesses such as Lewis Diemschutz and Morris Eagle appeared.

            How in the world did this happen?
            Hmmmm...

            Comment


            • #51
              The summons were sealed in advance. Its obvious.

              Sunday sitting, which is something I didn't think of admittedly.

              Monty
              Monty

              https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

              Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

              http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

              Comment


              • #52
                John
                Charles Lechmere did a fair job of hiding his identity and address.
                His true name was unknown to history for nearly 120 years.
                His family were completely unaware of his involvement in the case.
                Innocent or guilty, he avoided being brought in for questioning when there are numerous questionable aspects to his behaviour and the coincidence of the murders happening at places that can be linked to him, in terms of time and geography.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Ah - so now we have the possibility that the Cornor was sitting 'in court' on the Sunday.
                  This doesn't mean sitting in an actual court. There wasn't a coroners court which is why it was held in the Whitechapel Working Lads' Institute.
                  So Baxter - or even someone authorised on his behalf - could have issued a summons on the Sunday, as originally stated.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    No, summons can only be sealed at court, however yes, it can open on a Sunday for exceptional circumstances.

                    Whitechapel County Court I suspect.

                    Monty
                    Monty

                    https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                    Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Here is the full list of Lechmere children.
                      There is no significant gap between births.
                      Two died young and both names were re-given to subsequent children.
                      Charles Allen and Harriet Emma (who was born in March 1888 and died in December 1890)

                      1. Charles Allen LECHMERE
                      Born: 1872 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                      Died: Mar 1875 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

                      2. Elizabeth Emily LECHMERE
                      Born: Sep 1873 Place: Mile End, St.geo.in The E., London, England

                      3. Mary Jane LECHMERE
                      Born: Mar 1875 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                      Died: 16 Jun 1939 Place: Ilford, Essex, England

                      4. Thomas Allen LECHMERE
                      Born: Jun 1876 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                      Died: 3 Mar 1943 Place: London, England

                      5. George William LECHMERE
                      Born: Jun 1878 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                      Died: Place: Woodford, Essex, England

                      6. James Alfred LECHMERE
                      Born: Mar 1880 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

                      7. Louisa Annie LECHMERE
                      Born: Sep 1882 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                      Died: 3 May 1949 Place: Ilford, Essex, England

                      8. Charles Allen LECHMERE
                      Born: Mar 1884 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

                      9. Albert Edward LECHMERE
                      Born: Dec 1885 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

                      10. Harriet Emma LECHMERE
                      Born: Mar 1888 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                      Died: Dec 1890

                      11. Harriet Emma LECHMERE
                      Born: 7 Mar 1891 Place: Mile End, London, England
                      Died: 6 Apr 1980 Place: Croydon, Surrey, London

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        The rapidity with which Inquests were held means there must have been considerable flexibility in the issue of summonses for witnesses.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Monty:

                          "Done"

                          Todays best post - thank you!

                          All the best,
                          Fisherman

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            John Bennett:

                            "Then that failed too, as his address was given in The Star of 3 September."

                            I know, John - this has been brought up before. It would seem that the star secured the address on their own initiative. At any rate, if Lechmere tried to obscure the information about him, he certainly did what he could to minimize the damage. And thatīs what interests me.

                            The best,
                            Fisherman

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Lechmere View Post
                              Here is the full list of Lechmere children.
                              There is no significant gap between births.
                              Two died young and both names were re-given to subsequent children.
                              Charles Allen and Harriet Emma (who was born in March 1888 and died in December 1890)

                              1. Charles Allen LECHMERE
                              Born: 1872 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                              Died: Mar 1875 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

                              2. Elizabeth Emily LECHMERE
                              Born: Sep 1873 Place: Mile End, St.geo.in The E., London, England

                              3. Mary Jane LECHMERE
                              Born: Mar 1875 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                              Died: 16 Jun 1939 Place: Ilford, Essex, England

                              4. Thomas Allen LECHMERE
                              Born: Jun 1876 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                              Died: 3 Mar 1943 Place: London, England

                              5. George William LECHMERE
                              Born: Jun 1878 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                              Died: Place: Woodford, Essex, England

                              6. James Alfred LECHMERE
                              Born: Mar 1880 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

                              7. Louisa Annie LECHMERE
                              Born: Sep 1882 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                              Died: 3 May 1949 Place: Ilford, Essex, England

                              8. Charles Allen LECHMERE
                              Born: Mar 1884 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

                              9. Albert Edward LECHMERE
                              Born: Dec 1885 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

                              10. Harriet Emma LECHMERE
                              Born: Mar 1888 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
                              Died: Dec 1890

                              11. Harriet Emma LECHMERE
                              Born: 7 Mar 1891 Place: Mile End, London, England
                              Died: 6 Apr 1980 Place: Croydon, Surrey, London
                              Thanks, Lechmere, for the list.

                              I notice that little Charles Allen the first died the very month Mary Jane was born. Have to wonder which occurred first.

                              Poor woman. She had four children in about 4 years, and her first child died just as she was giving birth to the third. Hard times, for sure. Good thing her mother-in-law could take care of the baby, but I wonder about little Elizabeth Emily, who was just a baby herself.

                              I notice Harriet Emma the first lived longer than I had remembered she did.

                              Again, thanks for the list and the dates.

                              curious

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Just to throw some currently incomplete data into the mix...
                                I have been in correspondence with a lady who is distantly related to Thomas Cross and she will be sending me some info on him.
                                But one e-mail she sent me today got me guessing, when she wrote...
                                " you would be able to see all about him (Cross), copies of his signature etc.and service. He may have died in a strange way on duty."
                                What this comment about the way he died means I do not as yet know
                                I will keep you posted
                                Chris

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