Full notes on Charles Cross/Lechmere

[Chris Scott]

I was doing some "housekeeping" on my backup PC and came across the set of my full notes on Charles Cross. To have all the info in one place, here it is:-

Charles Allen Lechmere / Charles Cross



Charles Cross and Charles Lechmere were indeed one and the same person. And he wasn't deliberately lying or using a false name. Cross was his stepfather's name which was adopted in one census and after he married and set up his own household he reverted to the name Lechmere in the census records. he may have used the name in a murder inquiry as his stepfather was actually a police officer.

Cross was born in 1849 in St Anns, Soho. He was the son of John Allen Lechmere and his mother's maiden name was Maria Louisa Roulson. His parents married in 1846 in Hereford. This is listed as follows:
1846 Quarter 2
Hereford
John Allen Lechmere married Maria Louisa Roulson
His family were from Herefordshire. He had one sister named Emily, three years older than him.
In the 1851 census, his father is absent but his mother is listed as married as follows:
1851:
Blue School Lane, Hereford
Head: Maria Lechmere (Married) aged 25 born Hereford - Straw bonnet maker
Children:
Emily aged 4 born St Peters, Hereford
Charles aged 1 born St Anns, London

In 1858, however, his mother had moved to Whitechapel and was remarried to Thomas Cross, a police constable.
1858 Quarter 1
Whitechapel
Maria Louisa Lechmere married Thomas Cross

The family is listed in 1861 as followsm with Charles taking the name Cross:
1861:
13 Thomas Street, St George East
Head: Thomas Cross aged 36 born Burnton, Hereford - Police constable
Wife: Maria Louisa Cross aged 34 born Hereford
Children:
Emily Cross aged 14 born St Peters, Hereford
Charles Cross aged 11 born St Anns, London

The full listings for later census returns are as follows:
1871:
11 Mary Ann Street, St George in the East
Head: Charles A Lechmere aged 21 born Soho - Carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 21 born St George East
1881:
20 James Street, St George Street
Head: Chas. Allen Lechmere aged 31 born Soho - Carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 31 born East London
Children:
Elizabeth Emily aged 7
Thomas Allen aged 4
George William aged 2
James Alfred aged 1
All born in Mile End
1891:
22 Doveton Street, Mile End
Head: Charles A Lechmere aged 41 born Soho - Carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 41 born Wapping
Children:
Elizabeth E aged 17 born Mile End - Purse maker
Thomas A aged 14 - Vanguard (Carman)
George W aged 12
James A aged 11
Louisa A aged 8
Charles A aged 7
Albert E aged 5
Above children born in St Georges
Harriet E aged 12 months born Mile End

Other records:
Death:
1920 Quarter 4
Charles A Lechmere aged 71
Poplar
Marriage:
1871 Quarter 3
St George East
Charles Allen Lechmere married Elizabeth Bostock

Charles's wife Elizabeth survived him and lived until 1940.
She died on 12 September 1940 in Stratford and is buried in Bow Cemetery.

By 1871, Charles's mother, Maria Louisa Cross, was a widow as follows:
11 Mary Ann, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Cross (Widow) aged 45 born Whitfield, Hereford
Boarder:
George Blencowe aged 23 born Bethnal Green - Carman
A Thomas Cross died in St George in the East in 1869 but his age as given at the time of death is 34, which does not fit with that given in the 1861 census
Charles's mother remarried again in 1872 as follows:
1872 Quarter 3
Bethnal Green
Maria Louisa Cross
The others listed under the same reference are:
Joseph Forsdike
Robert Frogley
Elizabeth Nicholson
By looking forward to the 1881 census, we can see that Maria married Joseph Forsdike:
1881
23 Pinchin Street, St George in the East
Head: Joseph Forsdike aged 65 born Suffolk - Shoemaker
Wife: Maria Forsdike aged 55 born Herts (sic) - Dressmaker
Grand daughter:
Mary Lechmere aged 6 born St George East
Who this child is is not clear
Joseph Forsdike died as follows:
1889 Quarter 4
Joseph Forsdike
St George East
Aged 74
Maria Forsdike's death is listed as follows:
1901 Quarter 4
St George in the East
Maria Louisa Forsdike
Aged 77
Maria is listed in 1891 as follows:
18 St George Street, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 65 born Hereford - Horse flesh dealer (Cat)
Grandchild:
Mary Jane Lechmere aged 16 born St George East
and in 1901 as follows:
18 Old Gravel Lane, St George in the East
Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 76 born Hereford - Corn chandler
Servant:
Jessie Furnell aged 14 born St George East

[Fisherman]

Many thanks, Chris! Since he is under discussion right now, this is very useful information! Whether Lechmere deliberately used false information or not, however, is something we cannot establish, just as we cannot say that he took the name Cross - we only know that he was listed as Charles Cross in 1861, but since he was only eleven at that stage, his stepfather could well have been the one that signed for him.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Chris Scott]

1911 census
Address: 24 Carlton Road, Mile End
Head: Charles Allen Lechmere aged 61 born Soho - General shop and sweetstuff
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 61 born St George E
Children:
Albert aged 25 born St George E - Railway clerk
Harriet aged 20 born Mile End - Book folder (Printers)

The couple, Charles and Elizabeth, are listed as having been married 40 years, having had 11 children of whom 2 have died and 9 are still living as of 1911.

[Chris Scott]

Here is Lechmere's signature from 1911 census

[Chris Scott]

Addresses for Charles Allen Lechmere from Electoral Registeres

1890 22 Doveton Street
1894 22 Doveton Street
1896 46 Sceptre Street, Mile End
1898 46 Sceptre Street
1900 24 Doveton Street
1901 24 Doveton Street
1903 24 Carlton Road, Mile End
1904 24 Carlton Road
1905 24 Carlton Road
1906 24 Carlton Road
1907 24 Carlton Road
1908 24 Carlton Road
1912 24 Carlton Road
1914 24 Carlton Road
1915 24 Carlton Road
1918 2 Rounton Road, Poplar
1919 2 Rounton Road
1920 2 Rounton Road
1921 2 Rounton Road

[Monty]

Many thanks for this Chris.

Just shows that Cross did not use a false name. Any suggestion otherwise, to use as evidence of guilt, is really straw grasping.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"Just shows that Cross did not use a false name."

On the contrary - since we know that he was called Charles Allen Lechmere, any other name is incorrect, or, put otherwise: false.

Would Roulson also be a legit name for him to use? It was his motherīs maiden name, mind you...

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Monty:

"Just shows that Cross did not use a false name."

On the contrary - since we know that he was called Charles Allen Lechmere, any other name is incorrect, or, put otherwise: false.

Would Roulson also be a legit name for him to use? It was his motherīs maiden name, mind you...

The best,
Fisherman

No contrary, its there in black and white.

He used his name.

Monty

[Jenni Shelden]

Hi Monty,
because Cross was his stepfathers name and one he had been known by rather than a name he made up off the top off his head?

Harriet Blythe

[Monty]

Exactly Jenni,

Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before, giving your address, appearing at Inquest thus enabling identification and confirmation.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before..."

Letīs discuss the word "fact" again, Monty, since you are so protective about it.

Where is it stated that he used the name Cross before? Is it not true that his stepfather may well have been the person who signed young Charlesīname? If so, how do we know that he ever used the name Cross? Of course, it is a resonable suggestion to throw forward - but can it be MORE than a suggestion? Can we rule out that he very much disliked the name Cross, and never used it, instead calling himself Lechmere?

I mean, you had a lot to say about different gaits and so on in relation to the time he took to walk up to Browns Stable Yard, so we may perhaps want to thread carefully on this issue too? Or is it proven that he had used the name before?

"Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before, giving your address, appearing at Inquest thus enabling identification and confirmation."

Plus calling what had happened to a PC:s attention on the murder morning, Monty - letīs not forget that! He did lots of things that would effectively have steered any police interest away from him.

What about this alternative take:

A potential giveaway of guilt, giving a false name to the police, lying to a PC, diminishing his role in the discovery of Nichols and taking care not to have his address mentioned at the inquest.

Different views, different outcomes. Now THAT is a fact!

The best,
Fisherman

[Chris Scott]

Here is the listing for 1901
1901 census
24 Doveton Street, Mile End, Stepney
Head: Charles Lechmere aged 51 born Soho - Railway agent carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 51 born St George East
Children:
George aged 22 - Asst. warehouseman
James aged 21 - Railway agent's clerk
Louisa aged 18 - Book binding
Charles aged 17 - Asst. dock clerk
Albert aged 15 - Dock messenger
All above born in St George East
Harriet aged 10 born Mile End

I can understand why I missed this!
His name had been transcribed as Charles Lindimore and from the handwriting I can see why (see below)

[Monty]

Monty:

"Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before..."

Letīs discuss the word "fact" again, Monty, since you are so protective about it.

Where is it stated that he used the name Cross before? Is it not true that his stepfather may well have been the person who signed young Charlesīname? If so, how do we know that he ever used the name Cross? Of course, it is a resonable suggestion to throw forward - but can it be MORE than a suggestion? Can we rule out that he very much disliked the name Cross, and never used it, instead calling himself Lechmere?

I mean, you had a lot to say about different gaits and so on in relation to the time he took to walk up to Browns Stable Yard, so we may perhaps want to thread carefully on this issue too? Or is it proven that he had used the name before?

"Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before, giving your address, appearing at Inquest thus enabling identification and confirmation."

Plus calling what had happened to a PC:s attention on the murder morning, Monty - letīs not forget that! He did lots of things that would effectively have steered any police interest away from him.

What about this alternative take:

A potential giveaway of guilt, giving a false name to the police, lying to a PC, diminishing his role in the discovery of Nichols and taking care not to have his address mentioned at the inquest.

Different views, different outcomes. Now THAT is a fact!

The best,
Fisherman

I have held my tongue these past few days Christer regarding your misleading posts about me, so let's clear some things up huh?

1) This is Chris's thread so I will not engage you in one of your imfamous circled debates. This will be my one and only mail addressing you here.

2) Protective about facts? Hardly correct description however if you mean I prefer facts then yes, I do.

3) The 1861 census shows the name was used before. Stating his Stepfather completed the census is no indication Cross never used the name. The boy known as Charles Cross in 1861 had that name placed on an official document.

4) Is it proven that He himself used the name? No. However is it proven that he never used the name Cross? Yes, that has been proven. It is in the Inquest records.

5) He steered Police interest away from him? Not thorough checks? Again, conjecture. Procedure dictates the latter would have sufficed.

6) Again, the name isn't false. It appears in 1861 and in 1888.

7) In what why did he lie to the police? Name? - been shown untrue. What was said to Mizen? - misundertanding (though Paul sheds light on this) Timings? - an error of judgement. None give aways of guilt unless proven.

8) Yes, diffents views. The onus of PROOF is on the prosecution.

Come back to me we you have some.

Monty

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Chris

Thanks for posting all this, very useful.

[Chris Scott]

Charles and Elizabeth's marriage certificate