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  • Full notes on Charles Cross/Lechmere

    I was doing some "housekeeping" on my backup PC and came across the set of my full notes on Charles Cross. To have all the info in one place, here it is:-

    Charles Allen Lechmere / Charles Cross



    Charles Cross and Charles Lechmere were indeed one and the same person. And he wasn't deliberately lying or using a false name. Cross was his stepfather's name which was adopted in one census and after he married and set up his own household he reverted to the name Lechmere in the census records. he may have used the name in a murder inquiry as his stepfather was actually a police officer.

    Cross was born in 1849 in St Anns, Soho. He was the son of John Allen Lechmere and his mother's maiden name was Maria Louisa Roulson. His parents married in 1846 in Hereford. This is listed as follows:
    1846 Quarter 2
    Hereford
    John Allen Lechmere married Maria Louisa Roulson
    His family were from Herefordshire. He had one sister named Emily, three years older than him.
    In the 1851 census, his father is absent but his mother is listed as married as follows:
    1851:
    Blue School Lane, Hereford
    Head: Maria Lechmere (Married) aged 25 born Hereford - Straw bonnet maker
    Children:
    Emily aged 4 born St Peters, Hereford
    Charles aged 1 born St Anns, London

    In 1858, however, his mother had moved to Whitechapel and was remarried to Thomas Cross, a police constable.
    1858 Quarter 1
    Whitechapel
    Maria Louisa Lechmere married Thomas Cross

    The family is listed in 1861 as followsm with Charles taking the name Cross:
    1861:
    13 Thomas Street, St George East
    Head: Thomas Cross aged 36 born Burnton, Hereford - Police constable
    Wife: Maria Louisa Cross aged 34 born Hereford
    Children:
    Emily Cross aged 14 born St Peters, Hereford
    Charles Cross aged 11 born St Anns, London

    The full listings for later census returns are as follows:
    1871:
    11 Mary Ann Street, St George in the East
    Head: Charles A Lechmere aged 21 born Soho - Carman
    Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 21 born St George East
    1881:
    20 James Street, St George Street
    Head: Chas. Allen Lechmere aged 31 born Soho - Carman
    Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 31 born East London
    Children:
    Elizabeth Emily aged 7
    Thomas Allen aged 4
    George William aged 2
    James Alfred aged 1
    All born in Mile End
    1891:
    22 Doveton Street, Mile End
    Head: Charles A Lechmere aged 41 born Soho - Carman
    Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 41 born Wapping
    Children:
    Elizabeth E aged 17 born Mile End - Purse maker
    Thomas A aged 14 - Vanguard (Carman)
    George W aged 12
    James A aged 11
    Louisa A aged 8
    Charles A aged 7
    Albert E aged 5
    Above children born in St Georges
    Harriet E aged 12 months born Mile End

    Other records:
    Death:
    1920 Quarter 4
    Charles A Lechmere aged 71
    Poplar
    Marriage:
    1871 Quarter 3
    St George East
    Charles Allen Lechmere married Elizabeth Bostock

    Charles's wife Elizabeth survived him and lived until 1940.
    She died on 12 September 1940 in Stratford and is buried in Bow Cemetery.

    By 1871, Charles's mother, Maria Louisa Cross, was a widow as follows:
    11 Mary Ann, St George in the East
    Head: Maria L Cross (Widow) aged 45 born Whitfield, Hereford
    Boarder:
    George Blencowe aged 23 born Bethnal Green - Carman
    A Thomas Cross died in St George in the East in 1869 but his age as given at the time of death is 34, which does not fit with that given in the 1861 census
    Charles's mother remarried again in 1872 as follows:
    1872 Quarter 3
    Bethnal Green
    Maria Louisa Cross
    The others listed under the same reference are:
    Joseph Forsdike
    Robert Frogley
    Elizabeth Nicholson
    By looking forward to the 1881 census, we can see that Maria married Joseph Forsdike:
    1881
    23 Pinchin Street, St George in the East
    Head: Joseph Forsdike aged 65 born Suffolk - Shoemaker
    Wife: Maria Forsdike aged 55 born Herts (sic) - Dressmaker
    Grand daughter:
    Mary Lechmere aged 6 born St George East
    Who this child is is not clear
    Joseph Forsdike died as follows:
    1889 Quarter 4
    Joseph Forsdike
    St George East
    Aged 74
    Maria Forsdike's death is listed as follows:
    1901 Quarter 4
    St George in the East
    Maria Louisa Forsdike
    Aged 77
    Maria is listed in 1891 as follows:
    18 St George Street, St George in the East
    Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 65 born Hereford - Horse flesh dealer (Cat)
    Grandchild:
    Mary Jane Lechmere aged 16 born St George East
    and in 1901 as follows:
    18 Old Gravel Lane, St George in the East
    Head: Maria L Forsdike aged 76 born Hereford - Corn chandler
    Servant:
    Jessie Furnell aged 14 born St George East

  • #2
    Many thanks, Chris! Since he is under discussion right now, this is very useful information! Whether Lechmere deliberately used false information or not, however, is something we cannot establish, just as we cannot say that he took the name Cross - we only know that he was listed as Charles Cross in 1861, but since he was only eleven at that stage, his stepfather could well have been the one that signed for him.

    All the best,
    Fisherman
    Last edited by Fisherman; 08-16-2012, 12:57 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      1911 census
      Address: 24 Carlton Road, Mile End
      Head: Charles Allen Lechmere aged 61 born Soho - General shop and sweetstuff
      Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 61 born St George E
      Children:
      Albert aged 25 born St George E - Railway clerk
      Harriet aged 20 born Mile End - Book folder (Printers)

      The couple, Charles and Elizabeth, are listed as having been married 40 years, having had 11 children of whom 2 have died and 9 are still living as of 1911.

      Comment


      • #4
        Here is Lechmere's signature from 1911 census
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Addresses for Charles Allen Lechmere from Electoral Registeres

          1890 22 Doveton Street
          1894 22 Doveton Street
          1896 46 Sceptre Street, Mile End
          1898 46 Sceptre Street
          1900 24 Doveton Street
          1901 24 Doveton Street
          1903 24 Carlton Road, Mile End
          1904 24 Carlton Road
          1905 24 Carlton Road
          1906 24 Carlton Road
          1907 24 Carlton Road
          1908 24 Carlton Road
          1912 24 Carlton Road
          1914 24 Carlton Road
          1915 24 Carlton Road
          1918 2 Rounton Road, Poplar
          1919 2 Rounton Road
          1920 2 Rounton Road
          1921 2 Rounton Road

          Comment


          • #6
            Many thanks for this Chris.

            Just shows that Cross did not use a false name. Any suggestion otherwise, to use as evidence of guilt, is really straw grasping.

            Monty
            Monty

            https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

            Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

            http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

            Comment


            • #7
              Monty:

              "Just shows that Cross did not use a false name."

              On the contrary - since we know that he was called Charles Allen Lechmere, any other name is incorrect, or, put otherwise: false.

              Would Roulson also be a legit name for him to use? It was his motherīs maiden name, mind you...

              The best,
              Fisherman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                Monty:

                "Just shows that Cross did not use a false name."

                On the contrary - since we know that he was called Charles Allen Lechmere, any other name is incorrect, or, put otherwise: false.

                Would Roulson also be a legit name for him to use? It was his motherīs maiden name, mind you...

                The best,
                Fisherman
                No contrary, its there in black and white.

                He used his name.

                Monty
                Monty

                https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Monty,
                  because Cross was his stepfathers name and one he had been known by rather than a name he made up off the top off his head?

                  Harriet Blythe
                  “be just and fear not”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Exactly Jenni,

                    Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before, giving your address, appearing at Inquest thus enabling identification and confirmation.

                    Monty
                    Monty

                    https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                    Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Monty:

                      "Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before..."

                      Letīs discuss the word "fact" again, Monty, since you are so protective about it.

                      Where is it stated that he used the name Cross before? Is it not true that his stepfather may well have been the person who signed young Charlesīname? If so, how do we know that he ever used the name Cross? Of course, it is a resonable suggestion to throw forward - but can it be MORE than a suggestion? Can we rule out that he very much disliked the name Cross, and never used it, instead calling himself Lechmere?

                      I mean, you had a lot to say about different gaits and so on in relation to the time he took to walk up to Browns Stable Yard, so we may perhaps want to thread carefully on this issue too? Or is it proven that he had used the name before?

                      "Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before, giving your address, appearing at Inquest thus enabling identification and confirmation."

                      Plus calling what had happened to a PC:s attention on the murder morning, Monty - letīs not forget that! He did lots of things that would effectively have steered any police interest away from him.

                      What about this alternative take:

                      A potential giveaway of guilt, giving a false name to the police, lying to a PC, diminishing his role in the discovery of Nichols and taking care not to have his address mentioned at the inquest.

                      Different views, different outcomes. Now THAT is a fact!

                      The best,
                      Fisherman
                      Last edited by Fisherman; 08-16-2012, 06:55 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Here is the listing for 1901
                        1901 census
                        24 Doveton Street, Mile End, Stepney
                        Head: Charles Lechmere aged 51 born Soho - Railway agent carman
                        Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 51 born St George East
                        Children:
                        George aged 22 - Asst. warehouseman
                        James aged 21 - Railway agent's clerk
                        Louisa aged 18 - Book binding
                        Charles aged 17 - Asst. dock clerk
                        Albert aged 15 - Dock messenger
                        All above born in St George East
                        Harriet aged 10 born Mile End

                        I can understand why I missed this!
                        His name had been transcribed as Charles Lindimore and from the handwriting I can see why (see below)
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          Monty:

                          "Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before..."

                          Letīs discuss the word "fact" again, Monty, since you are so protective about it.

                          Where is it stated that he used the name Cross before? Is it not true that his stepfather may well have been the person who signed young Charlesīname? If so, how do we know that he ever used the name Cross? Of course, it is a resonable suggestion to throw forward - but can it be MORE than a suggestion? Can we rule out that he very much disliked the name Cross, and never used it, instead calling himself Lechmere?

                          I mean, you had a lot to say about different gaits and so on in relation to the time he took to walk up to Browns Stable Yard, so we may perhaps want to thread carefully on this issue too? Or is it proven that he had used the name before?

                          "Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before, giving your address, appearing at Inquest thus enabling identification and confirmation."

                          Plus calling what had happened to a PC:s attention on the murder morning, Monty - letīs not forget that! He did lots of things that would effectively have steered any police interest away from him.

                          What about this alternative take:

                          A potential giveaway of guilt, giving a false name to the police, lying to a PC, diminishing his role in the discovery of Nichols and taking care not to have his address mentioned at the inquest.

                          Different views, different outcomes. Now THAT is a fact!

                          The best,
                          Fisherman
                          I have held my tongue these past few days Christer regarding your misleading posts about me, so let's clear some things up huh?

                          1) This is Chris's thread so I will not engage you in one of your imfamous circled debates. This will be my one and only mail addressing you here.

                          2) Protective about facts? Hardly correct description however if you mean I prefer facts then yes, I do.

                          3) The 1861 census shows the name was used before. Stating his Stepfather completed the census is no indication Cross never used the name. The boy known as Charles Cross in 1861 had that name placed on an official document.

                          4) Is it proven that He himself used the name? No. However is it proven that he never used the name Cross? Yes, that has been proven. It is in the Inquest records.

                          5) He steered Police interest away from him? Not thorough checks? Again, conjecture. Procedure dictates the latter would have sufficed.

                          6) Again, the name isn't false. It appears in 1861 and in 1888.

                          7) In what why did he lie to the police? Name? - been shown untrue. What was said to Mizen? - misundertanding (though Paul sheds light on this) Timings? - an error of judgement. None give aways of guilt unless proven.

                          8) Yes, diffents views. The onus of PROOF is on the prosecution.

                          Come back to me we you have some.

                          Monty
                          Last edited by Monty; 08-16-2012, 07:57 PM.
                          Monty

                          https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                          Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                          http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Chris

                            Thanks for posting all this, very useful.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Charles and Elizabeth's marriage certificate
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

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