Full notes on Charles Cross/Lechmere

[Chris Scott]

Probate after CL's death -

[Chris Scott]

Children of Charles and Elizabeth Lechmere (list incomplete)

Elizabeth Emily 19 Oct 1873
Mary Jane 23 Jan 1876
Thomas Allen 2 July 1876
James Alfred 2 Jan 1881
Louisa Annie 30 Jul 1882
Charles Allen 24 Feb 1884
Albert Edward 3 Jan 1886
Harriet Emma 29 Mar 1891

[Chris Scott]

Charles and Elizabeth's marriage certificate

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Chris

Thanks for posting all this, very useful.

[Monty]

Monty:

"Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before..."

Letīs discuss the word "fact" again, Monty, since you are so protective about it.

Where is it stated that he used the name Cross before? Is it not true that his stepfather may well have been the person who signed young Charlesīname? If so, how do we know that he ever used the name Cross? Of course, it is a resonable suggestion to throw forward - but can it be MORE than a suggestion? Can we rule out that he very much disliked the name Cross, and never used it, instead calling himself Lechmere?

I mean, you had a lot to say about different gaits and so on in relation to the time he took to walk up to Browns Stable Yard, so we may perhaps want to thread carefully on this issue too? Or is it proven that he had used the name before?

"Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before, giving your address, appearing at Inquest thus enabling identification and confirmation."

Plus calling what had happened to a PC:s attention on the murder morning, Monty - letīs not forget that! He did lots of things that would effectively have steered any police interest away from him.

What about this alternative take:

A potential giveaway of guilt, giving a false name to the police, lying to a PC, diminishing his role in the discovery of Nichols and taking care not to have his address mentioned at the inquest.

Different views, different outcomes. Now THAT is a fact!

The best,
Fisherman

I have held my tongue these past few days Christer regarding your misleading posts about me, so let's clear some things up huh?

1) This is Chris's thread so I will not engage you in one of your imfamous circled debates. This will be my one and only mail addressing you here.

2) Protective about facts? Hardly correct description however if you mean I prefer facts then yes, I do.

3) The 1861 census shows the name was used before. Stating his Stepfather completed the census is no indication Cross never used the name. The boy known as Charles Cross in 1861 had that name placed on an official document.

4) Is it proven that He himself used the name? No. However is it proven that he never used the name Cross? Yes, that has been proven. It is in the Inquest records.

5) He steered Police interest away from him? Not thorough checks? Again, conjecture. Procedure dictates the latter would have sufficed.

6) Again, the name isn't false. It appears in 1861 and in 1888.

7) In what why did he lie to the police? Name? - been shown untrue. What was said to Mizen? - misundertanding (though Paul sheds light on this) Timings? - an error of judgement. None give aways of guilt unless proven.

8) Yes, diffents views. The onus of PROOF is on the prosecution.

Come back to me we you have some.

Monty

[Chris Scott]

Here is the listing for 1901
1901 census
24 Doveton Street, Mile End, Stepney
Head: Charles Lechmere aged 51 born Soho - Railway agent carman
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 51 born St George East
Children:
George aged 22 - Asst. warehouseman
James aged 21 - Railway agent's clerk
Louisa aged 18 - Book binding
Charles aged 17 - Asst. dock clerk
Albert aged 15 - Dock messenger
All above born in St George East
Harriet aged 10 born Mile End

I can understand why I missed this!
His name had been transcribed as Charles Lindimore and from the handwriting I can see why (see below)

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before..."

Letīs discuss the word "fact" again, Monty, since you are so protective about it.

Where is it stated that he used the name Cross before? Is it not true that his stepfather may well have been the person who signed young Charlesīname? If so, how do we know that he ever used the name Cross? Of course, it is a resonable suggestion to throw forward - but can it be MORE than a suggestion? Can we rule out that he very much disliked the name Cross, and never used it, instead calling himself Lechmere?

I mean, you had a lot to say about different gaits and so on in relation to the time he took to walk up to Browns Stable Yard, so we may perhaps want to thread carefully on this issue too? Or is it proven that he had used the name before?

"Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before, giving your address, appearing at Inquest thus enabling identification and confirmation."

Plus calling what had happened to a PC:s attention on the murder morning, Monty - letīs not forget that! He did lots of things that would effectively have steered any police interest away from him.

What about this alternative take:

A potential giveaway of guilt, giving a false name to the police, lying to a PC, diminishing his role in the discovery of Nichols and taking care not to have his address mentioned at the inquest.

Different views, different outcomes. Now THAT is a fact!

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Exactly Jenni,

Hardly an act of guilt, using a name you had used before, giving your address, appearing at Inquest thus enabling identification and confirmation.

Monty

[Jenni Shelden]

Hi Monty,
because Cross was his stepfathers name and one he had been known by rather than a name he made up off the top off his head?

Harriet Blythe

[Monty]

Monty:

"Just shows that Cross did not use a false name."

On the contrary - since we know that he was called Charles Allen Lechmere, any other name is incorrect, or, put otherwise: false.

Would Roulson also be a legit name for him to use? It was his motherīs maiden name, mind you...

The best,
Fisherman

No contrary, its there in black and white.

He used his name.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"Just shows that Cross did not use a false name."

On the contrary - since we know that he was called Charles Allen Lechmere, any other name is incorrect, or, put otherwise: false.

Would Roulson also be a legit name for him to use? It was his motherīs maiden name, mind you...

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Many thanks for this Chris.

Just shows that Cross did not use a false name. Any suggestion otherwise, to use as evidence of guilt, is really straw grasping.

Monty

[Chris Scott]

Addresses for Charles Allen Lechmere from Electoral Registeres

1890 22 Doveton Street
1894 22 Doveton Street
1896 46 Sceptre Street, Mile End
1898 46 Sceptre Street
1900 24 Doveton Street
1901 24 Doveton Street
1903 24 Carlton Road, Mile End
1904 24 Carlton Road
1905 24 Carlton Road
1906 24 Carlton Road
1907 24 Carlton Road
1908 24 Carlton Road
1912 24 Carlton Road
1914 24 Carlton Road
1915 24 Carlton Road
1918 2 Rounton Road, Poplar
1919 2 Rounton Road
1920 2 Rounton Road
1921 2 Rounton Road

[Chris Scott]

Here is Lechmere's signature from 1911 census

[Chris Scott]

1911 census
Address: 24 Carlton Road, Mile End
Head: Charles Allen Lechmere aged 61 born Soho - General shop and sweetstuff
Wife: Elizabeth Lechmere aged 61 born St George E
Children:
Albert aged 25 born St George E - Railway clerk
Harriet aged 20 born Mile End - Book folder (Printers)

The couple, Charles and Elizabeth, are listed as having been married 40 years, having had 11 children of whom 2 have died and 9 are still living as of 1911.