Full notes on Charles Cross/Lechmere

[Mr Lucky]

Just to throw some currently incomplete data into the mix...
I have been in correspondence with a lady who is distantly related to Thomas Cross and she will be sending me some info on him.
But one e-mail she sent me today got me guessing, when she wrote...
" you would be able to see all about him (Cross), copies of his signature etc.and service. He may have died in a strange way on duty."
What this comment about the way he died means I do not as yet know
I will keep you posted
Chris

Hi Chris

Are you refering to Charles Cross's step-father here, Do you happen to know what Police division he was in

Thanks

[Lechmere]

I have his death certificate - he didn't die on duty - he was 70 years old anyway.

( I know lots of descendants of his son Thomas Allen Lechmere)

[Chris Scott]

Just to throw some currently incomplete data into the mix...
I have been in correspondence with a lady who is distantly related to Thomas Cross and she will be sending me some info on him.
But one e-mail she sent me today got me guessing, when she wrote...
" you would be able to see all about him (Cross), copies of his signature etc.and service. He may have died in a strange way on duty."
What this comment about the way he died means I do not as yet know
I will keep you posted
Chris

[curious]

Here is the full list of Lechmere children.
There is no significant gap between births.
Two died young and both names were re-given to subsequent children.
Charles Allen and Harriet Emma (who was born in March 1888 and died in December 1890)

1. Charles Allen LECHMERE
Born: 1872 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: Mar 1875 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

2. Elizabeth Emily LECHMERE
Born: Sep 1873 Place: Mile End, St.geo.in The E., London, England

3. Mary Jane LECHMERE
Born: Mar 1875 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: 16 Jun 1939 Place: Ilford, Essex, England

4. Thomas Allen LECHMERE
Born: Jun 1876 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: 3 Mar 1943 Place: London, England

5. George William LECHMERE
Born: Jun 1878 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: Place: Woodford, Essex, England

6. James Alfred LECHMERE
Born: Mar 1880 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

7. Louisa Annie LECHMERE
Born: Sep 1882 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: 3 May 1949 Place: Ilford, Essex, England

8. Charles Allen LECHMERE
Born: Mar 1884 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

9. Albert Edward LECHMERE
Born: Dec 1885 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

10. Harriet Emma LECHMERE
Born: Mar 1888 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: Dec 1890

11. Harriet Emma LECHMERE
Born: 7 Mar 1891 Place: Mile End, London, England
Died: 6 Apr 1980 Place: Croydon, Surrey, London

Thanks, Lechmere, for the list.

I notice that little Charles Allen the first died the very month Mary Jane was born. Have to wonder which occurred first.

Poor woman. She had four children in about 4 years, and her first child died just as she was giving birth to the third. Hard times, for sure. Good thing her mother-in-law could take care of the baby, but I wonder about little Elizabeth Emily, who was just a baby herself.

I notice Harriet Emma the first lived longer than I had remembered she did.

Again, thanks for the list and the dates.

curious

[Fisherman]

John Bennett:

"Then that failed too, as his address was given in The Star of 3 September."

I know, John - this has been brought up before. It would seem that the star secured the address on their own initiative. At any rate, if Lechmere tried to obscure the information about him, he certainly did what he could to minimize the damage. And thatīs what interests me.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Monty:

"Done"

Todays best post - thank you!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

The rapidity with which Inquests were held means there must have been considerable flexibility in the issue of summonses for witnesses.

[Lechmere]

Here is the full list of Lechmere children.
There is no significant gap between births.
Two died young and both names were re-given to subsequent children.
Charles Allen and Harriet Emma (who was born in March 1888 and died in December 1890)

1. Charles Allen LECHMERE
Born: 1872 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: Mar 1875 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

2. Elizabeth Emily LECHMERE
Born: Sep 1873 Place: Mile End, St.geo.in The E., London, England

3. Mary Jane LECHMERE
Born: Mar 1875 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: 16 Jun 1939 Place: Ilford, Essex, England

4. Thomas Allen LECHMERE
Born: Jun 1876 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: 3 Mar 1943 Place: London, England

5. George William LECHMERE
Born: Jun 1878 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: Place: Woodford, Essex, England

6. James Alfred LECHMERE
Born: Mar 1880 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

7. Louisa Annie LECHMERE
Born: Sep 1882 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: 3 May 1949 Place: Ilford, Essex, England

8. Charles Allen LECHMERE
Born: Mar 1884 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

9. Albert Edward LECHMERE
Born: Dec 1885 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England

10. Harriet Emma LECHMERE
Born: Mar 1888 Place: St.geo.in The E., London, England
Died: Dec 1890

11. Harriet Emma LECHMERE
Born: 7 Mar 1891 Place: Mile End, London, England
Died: 6 Apr 1980 Place: Croydon, Surrey, London

[Monty]

No, summons can only be sealed at court, however yes, it can open on a Sunday for exceptional circumstances.

Whitechapel County Court I suspect.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Ah - so now we have the possibility that the Cornor was sitting 'in court' on the Sunday.
This doesn't mean sitting in an actual court. There wasn't a coroners court which is why it was held in the Whitechapel Working Lads' Institute.
So Baxter - or even someone authorised on his behalf - could have issued a summons on the Sunday, as originally stated.

[Lechmere]

John
Charles Lechmere did a fair job of hiding his identity and address.
His true name was unknown to history for nearly 120 years.
His family were completely unaware of his involvement in the case.
Innocent or guilty, he avoided being brought in for questioning when there are numerous questionable aspects to his behaviour and the coincidence of the murders happening at places that can be linked to him, in terms of time and geography.

[Monty]

The summons were sealed in advance. Its obvious.

Sunday sitting, which is something I didn't think of admittedly.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Monty
Charles Lechmere will have had to have given his address at some point up to 3rs September that is for sure.
When he did this is open to question.
Your discourse on the issue of summonses is very interesting but I doubt you were in service in 1888.

"Also the summons has to be sealed at court. As the court does not sit on a Sunday the sealing would have to have been on the Saturday. This due to the fact Cross appeared Monday. Ergo his address was known on Saturday.
The serving could have been via post or served in person.
He would not have been 'fitted in' as that is not how Coroners inquests work. The Coroner reads the witness statements and choses who he feel should attend. That is when he produces a list. Any inportant witnesses appearing after the setting of a list can be heard after an adjournement, which could take a period of time."

You will of course be aware that Liz Stride was murdered in the early hours of Sunday morning, 30th September.
When did her inquest commence?
Don't bother looking it up - Monday 1st October.
Witnesses such as Lewis Diemschutz and Morris Eagle appeared.

How in the world did this happen?
Hmmmm...

[curious]

Imagine it. Cross, the stepfather, though the interloper. But in his case, takes over as father. Mates, neighbours, workmates, would all admire it, taking on a family.
I wouldn't put it past probability that he was known as ' that Cross boy' "Cross's boy" and didnt hear the whisper afterwards 'course, he ain't the real Dad- some bloke called Lechmere that was".
Phil.

Hi, Phil,
You're spot-on here. Especially since the Lechmere father had taken off and deserted the family. It would be likely that the wife wanted to erase all signs of the loser. Happened in my family during the Civil War. When a great-great-grandfather was killed, my great-great-grandmother filed for his pension. Well, lo and behold, so did another woman, both claiming children. My great-great-grandmother remarried and her children went by the name of the stepfather until they married or left home. The family wanted to remove all evidence of the scoundrel.

And I suspect that Cross-Lechmere was name dropping, or trying to, when he gave his name as Cross. Perhaps he considered his stepfather to have been more powerful and memorable than he really was.

curious

[curious]

Hi Velma
Thanks for your kind comments :-)
I will have a look and see if I can find anything...

On another note, the address in the baptism record - 14 Sion Square - interested me. Is this the same Sion Square where Aaron Kosminski later lived?
Chris

whew, sort of makes you go "Huh" doesn't it?

Thanks, Chris, I would appreciate it.