Chapman’s death.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Great conclusion etenguy!

Let's depend on 'He must have seen her' instead!





I believe they had better understanding back then than some of 'us' today.



The Baron

Has anyone ever heard a more ridiculous, desperate statement?

A Victorian Doctor had a better understanding of Forensics that modern experts with an added 130 years of knowledge and discovery!

You couldn’t make it up could you.

What a joke

[Herlock Sholmes]

It was given as degrees Celsius in the paper I quoted and John G has found the same information apparently, but let´s say it WAS fahrenheit. Would it not mean that the body cooled off even slower? Excuse me for not being fully familar with the two scales and their differences. Anyway, if that is the case, I would be ecstatic to stand corrected.

It is comical how you claim that Phillips could only have gauged the temperature of the skin. You seem unable to explain how it is that medicos say that bodies will feel warm to the touch the first three hours. I will try again, and we shall see what happens:

The skin conducts the underlying warmth in the body up to its surface when you press your fingers against it.

See? THIS is how medicos will be able to feel the underlying warmth. Yes, they do so by touching the skin, but no, it is not the warmth of the skin they feel - it is the underlying core warmth, CONDUCTED by the skin to it´s surface.

I know that you would soooo very much like Seddon-Smith´s information to tell us that people can grow cold to the touch in twenty minutes or less, but you see, you cannot have that pacifier to suck on. It conveys something else than warmth, that is to say a false picture.

Then again conveying false pictures and hoping that people will think we have equally good arguments is your whole game plan, is it not?

I stand by what I have said: You are the worst example of ignorance and/or deception I have come across out here over the years.

but let´s say it WAS fahrenheit. Would it not mean that the body cooled off even slower?




It doesn't matter because it's the rectal temperature. Dr Phillips didn't take the rectal temperature so this entire exercise is irrelevant.

The skin conducts the underlying warmth in the body up to its surface when you press your fingers against it.

See?




No. This is absolute nonsense that you are making up off the top of your head. Where is your source Fisherman? This is just fantasy. It's not how a Victorian medico or anyone ever tested a dead body for warmth or cold.




THIS is how medicos will be able to feel the underlying warmth. Yes, they do so by touching the skin, but no, it is not the warmth of the skin they feel - it is the underlying core warmth, CONDUCTED by the skin to it´s surface.

Absolute rubbish. Stop making stuff up. You cannot feel an "underlying core warmth". The core may conduct heat to the skin but, in that case, it is the heat at the skin that is the only thing that can be felt.




I know that you would soooo very much like Seddon-Smith´s information to tell us that people can grow cold to the touch in twenty minutes or less, but you see, you cannot have that pacifier to suck on. It conveys something else than warmth, that is to say a false picture.



Fisherman, he was answering the question "How long does it take for your body to get cold after death?". You must think everyone other than you, including Dr Seddon-Smith, is an idiot.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Great conclusion etenguy!

Let's depend on 'He must have seen her' instead!

The Baron

Yes it is a great conclusion. Phillips couldn’t have made an accurate prediction because it was impossible for him to have done so. This has been conclusively proven and confirmed by every single Forensic expert without exception.

And so we have the witnesses.

She died sometime after 5.20am as any unbiased and fully functioning poster can see.

[etenguy]

Has anyone ever heard a more ridiculous, desperate statement?

A Victorian Doctor had a better understanding of Forensics that modern experts with an added 130 years of knowledge and discovery!

You couldn’t make it up could you.

What a joke

I tend to avoid reacting to crass posts or personal comments, but I made an exception in this case (for clarity I am referring to Baron's post not Herlock's).

[etenguy]

Yes it is a great conclusion. Phillips couldn’t have made an accurate prediction because it was impossible for him to have done so. This has been conclusively proven and confirmed by every single Forensic expert without exception.

And so we have the witnesses.

She died sometime after 5.20am as any unbiased and fully functioning poster can see.

I tend to agree with you - that the witness statements have to be considered when trying to understand when Chapman was murdered. However, although the guidance I consulted cautions heavily against estimating TOD based on temperature, it doesn't exclude the possibility of a much earlier death - 3.00 or 3.30 perhaps. So suggesting 5.20am as TOD (which I tend to agree with) has also to be treated with some caution as although the witness statements do not meaningfully contradict each other, they are also subject to a level of unreliability.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Many works, standard ones (like for example "Forensic Science: An Introduction to Scientific and Investigative Techniques" (Stuart H. James, Jon J. Nordby Ph.D., Suzanne Bell, Lana J Williams - the fourth edition of this book, called a landmark, can be bought today), give the figure as 1,5 degrees Celsius, and I am afraid that I would never take your word as gospel on anything. But if I DID, all I would need to do would be to substitute the 1,5 value for 0,8, and I would end up with 34.0 after the four hours that is a minimum before a body starts to feel cold to the touch.

Then we add the rest again 9 degrees ambient temperature, 45 kilos on Chapman and we get 3,0 hours.

Yes, I can see why you think the worlds most most renowned method for establishing TOD via algor mortis is a waste of time. It will not produce the wanted result by a country mile.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it. I can tell you the flavor: defeat. Long, bitter, excruciating defeat. And well deserved to!

All things settled, I am taking a much needed break now. Celsius, Herlock. Anders Celsius. He was also a Swede, you know. Clever people, mind you.

Oh, and DO keep trying. It´s amusing when you trip yourself up like this. Three hours. Three long hours. Puts the murder at, let´s see ... hmmm... 3.30!

I wonder who was walking down Hanbury Street at that ungodly time of the morning?

Let me guess. As per usual when your losing (I sorry I meant lost) an argument a fishing trip is in order.

And your last sentence I’m afraid let’s the cat out of the bag. As I’ve said all along, facts can go hang as long as you can shoehorn a witness into Jack the Ripper’s shoes.

Lechmere had been at work an hour and a half when Jack struck but nothing is impossible for you though. You even believe that he knocked off a prostitute 15/20 minutes before he was due to clock in at a spot that he was at 6 days a week at the same time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I tend to agree with you - that the witness statements have to be considered when trying to understand when Chapman was murdered. However, although the guidance I consulted cautions heavily against estimating TOD based on temperature, it doesn't exclude the possibility of a much earlier death - 3.00 or 3.30 perhaps. So suggesting 5.20am as TOD (which I tend to agree with) has also to be treated with some caution as although the witness statements do not meaningfully contradict each other, they are also subject to a level of unreliability.

I think it all boils down to the fact that the evidence is simply overwhelming and indisputable that the methods that Phillips used were completely unreliable. Experts tell us that they should not be relied upon so we simply can’t put any weight behind them (unless someone desperately need Phillips to have been correct of course which, rather coincidentally, is every poster favouring him) So we have to look at the witnesses and they all say after 5.20.

[John G]

It's a while since I looked at the Chapman case. How exactly did Dr Phillips determine body temperature?
I'm assuming he used a thermometer as simply touching the body would create problems. As Dr Biggs pointed out, " Being 'cold to the touch' really isn't helpful aa even live people can feel cold to the touch." ( Marriott, 2016.)

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's a while since I looked at the Chapman case. How exactly did Dr Phillips determine body temperature?
I'm assuming he used a thermometer as simply touching the body would create problems. As Dr Biggs pointed out, " Being 'cold to the touch' really isn't helpful aa even live people can feel cold to the touch." ( Marriott, 2016.)

No thermometer John. Just the magic touch.

[etenguy]

It's a while since I looked at the Chapman case. How exactly did Dr Phillips determine body temperature?
I'm assuming he used a thermometer as simply touching the body would create problems. As Dr Biggs pointed out, " Being 'cold to the touch' really isn't helpful aa even live people can feel cold to the touch." ( Marriott, 2016.)

Indeed, and our sense of touch does not reflect absolute temperature but rather the difference between our temperature and the temperature of the object we touch. So depending on how hot our hand is the same object may feel warm or cool to our touch.

[John G]

No thermometer John. Just the magic touch.

Oh dear, that's not good. So without an accurate body temperature reading, how can Dr Phillips' conclusions have any value at all?

[John G]

Fisherman earlier referred to Hennssge. Hennssge developed the gold standard for determining time of death via body temperature.

However, his approach involves a series of complex calculations using nonograms.

Thus, the first calculation is the empirical body weight correcting factor. This is important because body weight influences the initial body temperature: in the Biosphere 2 study subjects were sealed off from the outside world and required to eat a low calorie diet; this caused a weight loss of 10% in women. Regarding the impact on body temperature, the average dropped from 98.6 to 96-97 Fahrenheit, sometimes lower.

In the case under consideration, Chapman had been ill and was possibly emaciated, therefore her initial body temperatute may have been significantly below average.

A further correction factor is then required to take into account cooling conditions deviating from standard: see Hennssge and Madea, 2004.

Of course, before applying these various correcting factors we need to know the victims body temperature when measures post mortem, a task that Dr Phillips failed to undertake!

[FISHY1118]

Of all the people in the whole investigation, the fewest have done more damage to the case than Long, Cadosch, Richardson and Baxter.

This one sentence fisherman sums up the Chapman murder perfectly, what a great pity it is that obviously intelligent people cant see past it . And at the very least accept that the murder'' COULD'' have happen earlier and not at the HIGHLY UNLIKELY time of 5.25 TO 5.40am . Sad really.

[FISHY1118]

It’s not a debate anymore. It’s my facts against his fantasy.

It was over long ago. He just won’t admit it.

Yes Herlock ,your facts not'' THE'' facts.. Biggggg difference .

[DJA]

In the case under consideration, Chapman had been ill and was possibly emaciated, therefore her initial body temperatute may have been significantly below average.

Given that TB had reached her brain, her temperature could have been as low as 32C when alive, and given some the impression she was intoxicated.