Chapman’s death.

[Fisherman]

Anyway, enough is enough, and now I really have to go.

[JeffHamm]

No, I am not. It is you who are incorrect, trying to employ what was aimed at other matters on whether Phillips could tell very broadly or not whether a person was recently or long dead. He could, and he did, and that rules out the 5.30 witnesses.

Hi Fisherman,

You yourself noted you could not tell if I was alive or dead based upon the feel of my cold and warm hand in post 1782, "True, Jeff: I could not determine whether you are alive or dead by feeling your hands for warmth after you have had them sunk into icy and hot water, respectively."

My hands would be warm / cold respectively, not due to whether I'm alive (so no ToD) or dead (in which case there is a ToD), but because of the influence of the environment my hands were in on the surface skin temperature that you feel. I'm sure we both agree on that. Now, you admit that you could not even determine if there was a ToD based upon feeling skin temperatures of my hands due to the influence of the environment. If you cannot even determine if there was a ToD, it therefore follows that one cannot determine the more precise value of what that ToD is.

- Jeff

[Fisherman]

Read his/her quotes carefully Fisherman, they are full of baloney, close to propaganda, for the most part. Don't be surprised, be annoyed like the rest of us.

Whose? The term was in the contemporary papers, Michael, like the Evening News of October 1 1888:

"In her right hand were tightly clasped some grapes, and in her left she held a number of sweetmeats."

I don´t find that annoying. I find it factually interesting.

[Fisherman]

If anyone locates evidence of cachous being marketed in London 1888,I would be very,very interested.

If you look at the link:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/hoopers-cachou-sample-miniature-401023413

...you will find an auction site selling an 1870:s tin with the text "Hoopers Cachou Aromatise London Bridge".

Surely? Or?

[Michael W Richards]

What save are you talking about? The pills were described as sweetmeats by people who saw them, and "cachous" can be either strong breath pills - or flower scented, mild tablets.

Read his/her quotes carefully Fisherman, they are full of baloney, close to propaganda, for the most part. Don't be surprised, be annoyed like the rest of us.

[DJA]

Pontefract cake??

Winner,winner,chicken dinner!

Thanks.

Pontefract ( Pomfret ) Liquorice Cakes | An Educated Palate

[DJA]

Indeed. Furthermore, an ordinary person might have called them throat sweets or cough drops, in which case they could have been of the cheapest variety. The somewhat grand word "cachous" was, after all, a description by a middle-class doctor. I'm reminded of Lord Mandelson who, on visiting a chip shop, apparently saw some mushy peas and asked if he could have "some of that guacamole".

Incidentally, re Dave's suggestion that cachous were quite new in 1888, the OED shows that they'd been around for just over 200 years by then, albeit in variant spellings:



... and not necessarily from France, even if the word itself is. That said, the "Spanish" here might refer to licorice, as it was sometimes known as "Spanish root", or just "Spanish" (it's what we used to call it when I was a kid, as it happens).

As mentioned before,the medication/breath freshener has been around for thousands of years.

Returns as a fad, usually marked by marketing and packaging.

Such was the case with Cachou Lajaunie,a formulation from 1880 which was marketed from 1890 in a small yellow tin designed by a watchmaker.

If anyone locates evidence of cachous being marketed in London 1888,I would be very,very interested.

[Ms Diddles]

You are making that up.

Any proof at all.

There was one French import in 1888 and it was very new.It is an ancient medicine used as an astringent and breath freshener.

There was liquorice "something" cake at the time.A much larger sweet.Might have started with "P".

Pontefract cake??

[Fisherman]

Anyway, I think this will have to do for me for now, and so I am once more off to hide from Herlocks onslaught. Not.

[Fisherman]

You are making that up.

Any proof at all.

There was one French import in 1888 and it was very new.It is an ancient medicine used as an astringent and breath freshener.

There was liquorice "something" cake at the time.A much larger sweet.Might have started with "P".

Is this a fresh new approach to ripperology - to claim that people make things up? First Herlock and now you? The issue of the cachous has been discussed out here numerous times, and although many beleive that cachous were always synonymous with the Lajaunie variant from France, this is not so.

[Fisherman]

That's hypothermia. Do you have source material for the proposition that a body would have to reach 32 degrees C to be cold to the touch? Where did Dr Phillips say that Chapman felt iced cold?

Normally, a body will feel cold to the touch after 4-6 hours. That means that if it falls from 36 degrees, it will fall by 3.2 - 4.8 degrees, approximately, reaching around 31-32 degrees. During the first three hours after death, medicos will typically be able to pick up some degree of warmth. And neither Phillips nor I said that Chapman felt ice cold, John - both of us knew/know that there was a little warmth left under the intestines.

Overall, your case is not a useful one. Chapman would not have grown cold in an hour only, we just don´t do that.

[Fisherman]

Heat radiates.

Chapman was well insulated by clothing,as were the other C5.

She was lying on a cold backyard.

Those are the facts.

Well, you seem to conveniently forget that you claimed in your former post to me that convection was not an important factor. Now that I provide evidence to the contrary, you start speaking of Chapmans insulation - which will have had an influence, but convection will nevertheless have played a role. So basically, what you are doing is to avoid acknowledging that you were wrong back then, which is awfully intersting taken in combination with this:

Shame you are incapable of dragging up relevant facts,like the publication Joshua and I posted about.

It seems you are just as incapable of accepting facts as you claim I am. I have known for the longest that there wee factors involved that could have had an influence on Chapmans body temperature and her rigor. But I have also made it very clear that there were factors that spoke for a SLOWER rigor and a WARMER temperature in Chapmans body, and so I am not happy about how efforts are made to shoehorn her into something that could perhaps allow for the witnesses to come into play. We have no certainty about any of these factors and their potential influence on Chapmans body and rigor, and so we should not work from an assumption that whatever the cost, we must prioritize the witnesses.

Good save on your sweetmeats vs cachous post

What save are you talking about? The pills were described as sweetmeats by people who saw them, and "cachous" can be either strong breath pills - or flower scented, mild tablets.

[DJA]

Cachous is not some brand name item, it is a generic name for a breath freshening lozenge, of which there were plenty of varieties available in London during the LVP. If you are referring to some kind of Lancôme version of them, I would agree that expensive breath fresheners were beyond the reach of the average Unfortunate. Since they could get a bed for 4D a night, and she was paid 6d for cleaning that afternoon, there was plenty to get the flowers and the fresheners contextually.

You are making that up.

Any proof at all.

There was one French import in 1888 and it was very new.It is an ancient medicine used as an astringent and breath freshener.

There was liquorice "something" cake at the time.A much larger sweet.Might have started with "P".

[Sam Flynn]

Well, according to the Harrods catalogue of 1895, cachous were priced at 0/3 per ounce, although I seriously doubt that Stride purchased her cachous from Harrods

Indeed. Furthermore, an ordinary person might have called them throat sweets or cough drops, in which case they could have been of the cheapest variety. The somewhat grand word "cachous" was, after all, a description by a middle-class doctor. I'm reminded of Lord Mandelson who, on visiting a chip shop, apparently saw some mushy peas and asked if he could have "some of that guacamole".

Incidentally, re Dave's suggestion that cachous were quite new in 1888, the OED shows that they'd been around for just over 200 years by then, albeit in variant spellings:



... and not necessarily from France, even if the word itself is. That said, the "Spanish" here might refer to licorice, as it was sometimes known as "Spanish root", or just "Spanish" (it's what we used to call it when I was a kid, as it happens).

[DJA]

Yes, apparently as cheap as a quarter pound of barley sugar. Mind you, seems about right for Dr Phillips!

8 oz barley sugar (being half a pound)

or

1 oz cachous

3d

1895