Chapman’s death.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another thing, Herlock - Phillips DID feel both sides of Chapmans body. I found this nugget:

The stiffness was more noticeable on the left side, especially in the fingers, which were partly closed.

... meaning that Phillips felt the right side to an extent too. Maybe it was warm and he kept that information from us? What do you think, Herlock?

In your desperation to try and win at all costs you’ve slipped up here I’m afraid.

The quote that you have pasted refers to the 2.00 pm post-mortem examination by Dr Phillips that took place at the mortuary six hours after he first examined the body in Hanbury Street.

Its on page 87 of the Sourcebook, taken from The Times report of the Inquest.


Its long past time for you to do the decent thing here Fish and to admit that you’re wrong. Because you are. There can be no doubt at all. It’s overwhelming Fish.

Phillips could have been wrong and there would have been absolutely nothing freakish about it. It would have been outside the average time of course but we have ample criteria that could account for this. You yourself have said that the points against are cancelled out by the points for. The problem is though that you take the frankly bizarre position that we should therefore take earlier TOD. No. If they cancel each other out we take the position that the Doctor could have been wrong or he could have been right and so we should look to see if there are other pointers to a possible TOD. And lo and behold we have 3 witness who all indicate a later TOD and so later is the likelier of the two options.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Dr Blackwell;

"I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, at the most half an hour."

[Herlock Sholmes]

Lets extend the question to anybody out there: what examples do we have of medicos who have said ”I am certain that 50 is the absolute maximum, but it could be 100”. Doctors who halve or double their own bids, in the same sentence and without having been challenged? ”You can at the very most live with this disease for three years, but it can also be six, sort of. The suggestion is kind of asinine, is it not?

You’re challenge triggered a memory. I just checked and lo and behold I was correct.

In David Orsam’s superb Camden Town Murder Mystery, a book that I’d recommend to you Fish as a factual, flight of fancy free analysis of a crime, Doctor Thompson estimated Emily Dimmock’s TOD as being between 5 and 6am. He then changed this to 3am. That’s 2 or 3 hours Fish. I think that David believes it possible that it might even have been as early as 1am.

[Fisherman]

Dr Blackwell;

"I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, at the most half an hour."

Not the same, I'm afraid. Many have said it like that, "I don't think that X have been dead for more than XX minutes or at the most XX". The first timing represents the exact guess of the medico, the second the stretch.

Phillips´ stretch was 2 hours.

[Fisherman]

As for the teflon poster Herlock Sholmes - who tells the boards about how long posts I write - he will have to wait to get more stick until tomorrow.

[Fisherman]

Besides, Richardson's revision does not negate his having tried to remove the leather from his boot, and doesn't do anything to his having sat on the step or affect his adamant statement that there was no corpse in the yard when he went to check the cellar door.

He didn't say that he tried to cut leather of his boot, he said he did so.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As for the teflon poster Herlock Sholmes - who tells the boards about how long posts I write - he will have to wait to get more stick until tomorrow.

Teflon?

Unbelievable! I’m the one urging caution (based on expert testimony) whilst your claiming infallibility.

What stick?

Im simply not interested in your responses any longer Fish. The debate is over and it was over long ago. You’re wrong. And not for the first time you will go to extraordinary lengths to keep your hopes alive. Phillips could easily have been wrong. This is a fact. The witnesses tip the balance. A later TOD is the likeliest.

Theres little point in prolonging this as you’re stumbling into posts like #431.

All that you have left is the propaganda value of continuing to post after your opponent has lost interest in continuing.

[FISHY1118]

Of course there could be the noises of people moving packing cases around at other times but we are talking about at around 5.20-5.25 on that particular morning. And on that particular morning there were no packing cases in the yard! And more importantly Fishy there was no other person in that yard to move those non-existent packing cases around! And how do we know that there can’t have been? Because if the infallible Dr Phillips was correct then there was a mutilated corpse there which makes it unlikely that someone would be working away without seeing it!

Another silly post from you again Herlock , and the sad part is you cant see why. It like talking to a brick wall .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another silly post from you again Herlock , and the sad part is you cant see why. It like talking to a brick wall .

Are you real?

I asked what else could have made the noise in the yard if it wasn’t connected to the murder?

You suggested something to do with packing cases.

I said that there were no packing cases.

You posted a quote saying that packing cases were in the yard at times due to the packing case business.



How is that relevant?

The point is that there were no packing cases in that yard at that particular time.

How can you not understand this?

The noise that Cadosch said that he heard categorically could not have been packing cases. Do you understand?

So what else could it have been?

Maybe an excessively overweight and extremely clumsy cat?

Maybe a blind man who tripped over the corpse?



You're talking nonsense as ever Fishy. Even on the simple stuff.

[Fisherman]

You’re challenge triggered a memory. I just checked and lo and behold I was correct.

In David Orsam’s superb Camden Town Murder Mystery, a book that I’d recommend to you Fish as a factual, flight of fancy free analysis of a crime, Doctor Thompson estimated Emily Dimmock’s TOD as being between 5 and 6am. He then changed this to 3am. That’s 2 or 3 hours Fish. I think that David believes it possible that it might even have been as early as 1am.

Yes, a doctor may of course change his take, depending on a reevaluation, normally caused by added information. Phillips - according to you - changed his estimation in the same sentence, no information and no criticism added.

Maybe, just maybe, you are able to see that these are different matters. No?

[Fisherman]

Okay, then, over now to the poster who thinks that Chapmans right side may have been warm while then left one was cold!

I will not go into detail this time, but instead I will change the perspective somewhat and pick just a few things that I personally find revealing.

We have the master detective Herlock Sholmes telling us that "we've already established that a body can feel cold very quickly from the outside. A GP that I cited said it can feel cold in 10-20 minutes."

To begin with, "we" have not established something. YOU have tried and failed to establish falsities, and that is not the same thing.

Now, the GP Herlock refers to is of course Rob Seddon-Smith. Herloci found him answering peoples questions on an internet site, and one question was about the cooling off when we die. This is what Seddon-Smith answered:

"Once you die, you are just subject to physics and will cool at a rate depending on the transfer of the heat into the environment. The key factors are of course the air temperature, and draughts and insulation such as clothing and bedding.

What is interesting is that people are cold and clearly dead about 10–20 minutes after death. Though the core takes a long time to cool, the skin is insulated from the core and cools very rapidly once circulation ceases. Although there is residual warmth, the body feels cold quite quickly."

So! To begin with, Seddon-Smith does not say that a body "can feel cold in 10-20 minutes", did he? No, he instead said that the body WILL be cold and clearly dead after 10-20 minutes! It is not a case of SOME people getting colder quicker than others, it is a question of how the skin WILL give away that we are cold in 10-20 minutes. This is because "the skin is insulated from the core and cools very rapidly".

And the core? Does that cool very rapidly? No, it cools at a rate of approximately 1,5 degrees per hour.

So what is it the medicos feel? The temperature of the skin or the temperature of the core?

Well, if Herlock and Seddon-Smith are correct, then medicos will ALWAYS be subjected to bodies where the skin has taken 10-20 minutes to grow cold. And now Herlock wants this process to be the one that governs a medicos ability to feel for warmth. So what happens? Its easy - whenever a body has been dead for 20 minutes plus, the medico WILL say that the body has been dead long enough to grow cold. And THAT is what Herlock suggests happened in the Chapman case. Although, he does not want to admit to what Seddon-Smith REALLY says - that the skin WILL grow cold in 10-20 minutes. No, Herlock has a more clever strategy, he tells us that Seddon-Smith claims that SOME peoples´ skin MAY grow cold in as little as 10-20 minutes.

Oh, how that would work magic in the Chapman case for Herlock. But- alas - it was not to be! The ever deceiving and misleading Fisherman found him out. Again! and now Fisherman will once again explain to Herlock how it works:

-The skin is insulated from the body core.

-Therefore, the warmth in the core will not be conducted up to the skin surface.

-This is why the skin is not 37 degrees when we feel it.

-It is also the reason we don't put a fever thermometer to the skin - because being insulated, it is much colder than the core.

-Medicos know that now and the knew it back then.

-They also knew that when feeling for warmth, there are places where the blood vessels are many and thick and closer to the skin than in other places. And when feeling for warmth there, it can be detected for hours after death. In ALL people! Not in some, mind you.

Now, this is what I am wondering about: Herlock is trying to scrape together a minute or two by suggesting that Phillips was turtle slow at the murder site and tended to everything else but examining the body the first few minutes. He wants to prolong the time that had passed before Phillips checked the body. It seems like Chapman was alive at 5.30 if we ask Long (which we really, really shouldn't, because she is not telling us what happened), and so a TOD at around 5.35 is as quick as we can be. Phillips set out examining at 6.30 it would seem. That leaves us with 55 minutes for Chapman to cool off.
Herlock wants the deed to be as quick as he wants Phillips to have been slow. He wants to stretch it to 57 minutes, 60, 62 - maybe even 70!

Now I am wondering - if we all develop a cold skin in 10-20 minutes, and if the medicos were at a loss to feel for warmth beyond that stage - why all the efforts to prolong the time, Herlock? Twenty minutes is all you are going to need, right? Perhaps only ten, and Phillips would go: "Cold. Dead for at least two hours, probably more."

Now, does ANYONE at all out here actually buy into this kind of crap? Is there anybody - outside of Herlock - who cannot see how this works, who actually believes that a victorian medico would not be able to feel for warmth BEYOND 10-20 minutes? That he would accept the cool skin as an indication of hours of death?

I hope not. It would make a sad business even sadder.

Here it is, hopefully for the last time:

We can be certain that Long and Cadosch had nothing to do with the Ripper, and that Chapman was dead at 5.30.

We can be reasonably certain that she was also dead at 4.45-4.50.

And we can be absolutely certain that Herlock Sholmes will embark on a new crusade of naysaying. The only thing that is interesting with that is to see what new material he will dredge up from the net and misrepresent. Its not as if there is a shortage of whoppers going around: "Chapman might have lost a lot more blood than Eddowes."

Yeah, right.

[FISHY1118]

How is that relevant?

The point is that there were no packing cases in that yard at that particular time.

How can you not understand this?

The noise that Cadosch said that he heard categorically could not have been packing cases. Do you understand?

So what else could it have been?

Maybe an excessively overweight and extremely clumsy cat?

Maybe a blind man who tripped over the corpse?



You're talking nonsense as ever Fishy. Even on the simple stuff.

Herlock ,prove to me that the thud Codosch heard was the body of Chapman hitting the fence .... OH WAIT , THATS RIGHT YOU CANT , and there we have it right there. I told you, you just cant see that there may well be are other possibilities where Annie Chapmans murder is concerned ESPECIALLY HER T.O.D, WHICH WAS MORE LIKELY AT BETWEEN 3.30 AND 4.30am . but you just keep on believing that the Long , Codosch and Richardson scenario is gospel , and you will be forever chasing a ghost .

Indeed it was good that fisherman posted from the Wolf Vanderlinden article, any serious person who trying to figure out the death of Chapman should start right there, and not with the unreliable and very very very contradictory testimony of L.C.R.

[Fisherman]

Herlock ,prove to me that the thud Codosch heard was the body of Chapman hitting the fence .... OH WAIT , THATS RIGHT YOU CANT , and there we have it right there.

Yes, that IS true - there we DO have it. Anybody who predisposes that this thud MUST have come from Chapman falling against the fence is quite simply looking away from a number of possibilities, and furthermore disregarding that Chapman - according to a witness who must be looked upon as much better, since she claimed she saw and could identify Chapman, whereas Cadosch never saw a soul - stood out in Hanbury Street at 5.32, discussing with a man of foreign extraction.

Of course, Longs story, as well as Cadosch´s, will both be unrelated to the Ripper and possible poppycock, but when scrutinizing Herlock Sholmes´inclinations when he assesses the evidence, that does not matter; we can see how he goes about his business. Believe in as much as possible the witnesses say and disbelieve anything Phillips says. Dig up a hundred people who say that feeling for warmth is an inexact method that will not be useful to establish a TOD, and disregard that the method can be very useful to decide that cold bodies cannot have been dead for an hour only.

It is like comparing telling 200 yards from 300 to telling fifty yards from a kilometer, but this Herlock will never concede. No, he goes on quoting those who speak of the difference between 200 and 300 yard sometimes being hard to see, whereas he completely disregards our knowledge that this was never a close call in the first place.

Sensing that he is on a slippery slope, he brings out GP:s who speak about skin cooling and turns that into evidence that some people will grow cold in as little as 10-20 minutes, and he adds that Phillips possible omission to feel the right side of Chapmans body for warmth may have deprived us of clinching evidence that she had only been dead for some little time, while we all know that a body cools from the outside into the core, not from left to right! Which incidentally is the exact thing that allows a medico to feel one side only and anticipate that the other side correlates to the first one.

And to think, on the other site Herlock whines over having to debate with me, adding a picture of somebody banging his head against the wall! That's a whole new level of lacking self-insight, I dare say!

[Sam Flynn]

In your desperation to try and win at all costs you’ve slipped up here I’m afraid.

The quote that you have pasted refers to the 2.00 pm post-mortem examination by Dr Phillips that took place at the mortuary

And Phillips was referring to the presence of rigor in the limbs, not the surface temperature of the right side of the body. Presumably, he only checked the temperature of the left side because it was still largely intact. The asymmetric hole in the abdomen meant that there was less undamaged flesh to assess on the right side than on the other.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock ,prove to me that the thud Codosch heard was the body of Chapman hitting the fence .... OH WAIT , THATS RIGHT YOU CANT , and there we have it right there. I told you, you just cant see that there may well be are other possibilities where Annie Chapmans murder is concerned ESPECIALLY HER T.O.D, WHICH WAS MORE LIKELY AT BETWEEN 3.30 AND 4.30am . but you just keep on believing that the Long , Codosch and Richardson scenario is gospel , and you will be forever chasing a ghost .

Indeed it was good that fisherman posted from the Wolf Vanderlinden article, any serious person who trying to figure out the death of Chapman should start right there, and not with the unreliable and very very very contradictory testimony of L.C.R.

More dishonesty. Move diversion. It’s pathetic.

You said the the noise could have come from packing cases.

Fact.

I told you that there were no packing cases

Fact

Then you posted a pointless quote about the packing case business.

Fact.

I told you that it was irrelevant because there were no packing cases present at that time.

Fact.

You're response above didn’t respond to my point. It dishonestly ignored it which is something that you have a history of doing.

Fact.


So to sum up. There’s no point in wasting words on you. You are utterly and hopelessly biased purely because you want an earlier TOD to accommodate your comedy theory.