Schwartz, a fraud?

[Errata]

Precisely. Although the really poor people in Victorian Whitechapel didn't have home clocks. When we assume a slight variation between the different church clocks in the city, we're talking about a discrepancy of 5´-10´minutes max, but in the Stride case such a discrepancy is significant.

I swear to you, you never know how significant it is until you live a block away from seven churches, and they are all about a minute off of each other, and it strikes noon. The cacophony is unbearable. The Neighborhood actually made most of them turn their chimes off. It was like someone went bowling in a bell store.

[mariab]

Garza wrote:
It is very significant, especially when you consider PC Smith probably seen Stride at 12.40-12.45am and not at 12.30-35am that is usually stated.
Yes, I know. I want to consult all the good lit/all the sources before attempting to figure out a possible timetable for the Stride case.

Errata, this is so funny! Last fall I was at a conference in Durham (Durham in the UK, not in South Carolina) where the historical cathedral's clock was supposed to ring every quarter of hour with different chords, but instead of that it frequently went bonkers for up to half an hour non stop – also in the middle of the night! The conference was held just behind the cathedral, and on the first day there was an unfortunate speaker who had to wait for 20'min., until the bell decided to stop, while we were laughing our heads off. Two days later I was supposed to speak about the “post traumatic stress syndrome“ experienced in Europe after the French Revolution and about a really amazing opera by Jewish composer Giacomo Meyerbeer (Les Huguenots) which spots a historically authentic massacre on stage after the bell of Saint Germain d'Auxerrois in Paris starts ringing as a signal. I immediately knew I had to cut this part completely out of my paper. It's a totally cool, horrific and impressive scene/staging, but I knew that the minute I'd pronounce the words “bell ringing“ everybody would start cackling hysterically! So off it went.

[Garza]

Yes, I know. I want to consult all the good lit/all the sources before attempting to figure out a possible timetable for the Stride case.

Good job!

Have you read Gavin Bromley's excellent dissertation on PC Smith's beat? Quite a read, you will have to make some room for it lol.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-smiths-beat.html

[mariab]

Hello Garza,
the Bromley piece I've heard been quoted a lot in the threads, but never found time to read it. Thanks so much for posting the link. I'll most definitely read it in the coming days. (Right now I should be checking the job announcements online, and tomorrow morning I'm taking a plane to Greece, so it's a bit tight right now.)

[Garza]

Hello Garza,
the Bromley piece I've heard been quoted a lot in the threads, but never found time to read it. Thanks so much for posting the link. I'll most definitely read it in the coming days. (Right now I should be checking the job announcements online, and tomorrow morning I'm taking a plane to Greece, so it's a bit tight right now.)

It must be so terrible to travel all over the world maria lol . Good luck with the job announcements!

[Errata]

Precisely. Although the really poor people in Victorian Whitechapel didn't have home clocks. When we assume a slight variation between the different church clocks in the city, we're talking about a discrepancy of 5´-10´minutes max, but in the Stride case such a discrepancy is significant.

I don't know how applicable this is, but it sort of just occurred to me. I can think of a reason that a Jew might be more knowledgeable about the time than a non Jew of the same economic background. Jews have quite a lot of jewelers and pawn shops. By far more than any other community, for a series of very longstanding reasons. But even to this day people tend not to buy used engagement rings, or used timepieces. Engagement rings I understand, but I never understood the watch thing.

The thing about a pawn shop is, that if jewelry doesn't sell, you can sell it for scrap. You cannot sell a watch for scrap, unless you know a watchmaker who is looking for specific parts. So you get stuck with them. But if it's a family owned business, it's a bit less of a problem. Because what makes a better gift than a clock or a watch? You can just pull it out of your inventory and wrap it up. Today it's a traditional Jewish gift. Especially for Bar Mitzvahs, weddings, a bris. Its a way to save money on an item that is not selling. Give it away, and then you didn't have to buy a gift.

[mariab]

Well, actually I'm going to my mom for a week as it's the first anniversary of my father's death. But we'll also go to the beach on Sunday. Plus there's tons of bureaucratical stuff to take care of.
Job announcements is kinda like a weekly routine. I'm about to apply for 4 things in the US after having applied for another 2 gigs in Germany, so I secretly hope for no new advertisements.

[mariab]

Errata, fascinating insight into watchmaking and the Jewish tradition. When in Chicago I'm surrounded by Jewish-Americans, I haven't noticed any antique watch-fetishes, but they are third generation American-Jews and not really traditional.
Errata wrote:
Engagement rings I understand, but I never understood the {used} watch thing.
I wouldn't be interested in an engagement ring (new or old), but I would totally fancy wearing a used watch handed down by some great athlete. Hell, I would probably wear their old clothes and underwear. (Gross, much?)

[Errata]

Errata, fascinating insight into watchmaking and the Jewish tradition. When in Chicago I'm surrounded by Jewish-Americans, I haven't noticed any antique watch-fetishes, but they are third generation American-Jews and not really traditional.

We don't really pass them down much anymore, although I have my grandmother's and great grandmother's watches lying around here somewhere. But as best I could tell during Bar and Bat Mitzvah season, all the girls got an unusual number of picture frames, and all the guys got multiple watches. What a 13 year old needs with a TAG watch is beyond me however.
But I think I've wandered away from the thread. I'll shut up now.

[corey123]

a few thoughts:

1: Dominant hands (for those who care): Most people are right hand dominant. What this means is that the dominant hand is used for fine tasks (writing, sewing, cutting, etc) the non dominant hand is the strength and stability hand. As it applies, Strides cachous were probably in her left hand because they were in her left pocket. And they were in her left pocket for the same reason I keep my cigarettes in my left pocket. I am right handed. I pull out the pack of cigarettes with my left hand, and open the pack and remove a cigarette with my right. As far as pinning a flower goes, you would hold the flower to the garment with your non-dominant hand, and pin it with your dominant one.

2: The times may be off if the club had a clock. If the club had a clock, or Schwartz had a watch, they would likely be set to a slightly different time than the clock on the street. Schwartz also might be terrible at estimating time.

3: If the only word Schwartz recognized in English was "Lipski" that doesn't speak well for his time in London up to that point. And assuming he left Hungary because of the Pogroms, it seems likely that would have been a keen judge of dangerous situations.

4: Women scream in all kinds of ways for many reasons. What was described as a scream may in fact have been more of a squeal, like in pain, or that weird gasping kind of noise we make in outrage. Or even that progression in volume people do when trying to gain someone's attention (hey. hey! HEY!)

5: Given the anti-Jewish anti-foreigner sentiments predominating in London, and the fact that Stride was killed outside of a mostly Jewish club, the cops may have decided that Schwartz's testimony would cloud the issue. They didn't need it to establish that she had been willfully murdered by persons unknown. Introducing an immigrant Jew with no English to testify could easily backfire if the jury gave in to bigotry and decided that he was lying because he was the murderer or some such. Better by far not to use his testimony, i think.

Hello Errata,

I believe your points one and three are irrelevent. We know women scream in different ways, and we don't know whether Stride was left or right handed, and the placement of the flowers were also possibly pinned there by someone else than her, however, again this is irrelevent.

Point two however is interesting. I agree that the timiming was most likely off. Also, you forgot to mention the timing might have been misunderstood by the translator.

In point three you said he would be more keen to dangerous situations while in fact I believe the effect of coming from Hungary would be the opposite. He was in unfamilar territory with unfamiliar people. It would have been stressful none the less. Also, what if this situations he thinks he saw wasn't dangerous, but he assumed it was before watching further? Also, you have to factor in circumstances like the translation.

Point five is wrong, both Abberline and Swanson(I am going by memory) believe his story.

[Errata]

In point three you said he would be more keen to dangerous situations while in fact I believe the effect of coming from Hungary would be the opposite. He was in unfamilar territory with unfamiliar people. It would have been stressful none the less. Also, what if this situations he thinks he saw wasn't dangerous, but he assumed it was before watching further? Also, you have to factor in circumstances like the translation.

Point five is wrong, both Abberline and Swanson(I am going by memory) believe his story.

Keen is perhaps a misleading word, and attuned isn't quite right either. Justifiable paranoia might be right. Hungary in the 1870's I believe had gone through an exceptionally ugly period for Jews. If someone goes through that, emigrates to England, and encounters enough dangerous situations associated with someone shouting "Lipski!" that it becomes one of the few English words he recognizes, then his survival instincts would likely be ramped up to the level of PTSD. It could easily result into him misinterpreting what he saw, it could also result in him accurately determining a dangerous situation with little articulate input. Something we describe as a "vibe". A series of minute clues and subtle differences that alert us to danger, without us being able to articulate exactly what it was that tipped us off.

As for point five, I didn't say that the cops didn't believe him, just that they might be reluctant to put him in front of a potentially hostile jury.

[corey123]

Hello Errata,

It is possible, but in most cases these "vibes" are very unreliable.

Also, I think rather the fact that he didnt come to the inquest was rather the timing. He went to Swanson on the 9th when the fourth session of the Inquest(not the last, but the session of the 24th was barely to sum the verdict, withful murder against some person or persons unknown) on the 6th had already adjurned.

Of coarse, you are entirely correct when saying the fact that Schwartz didn't know an english word if he saw would have greatly reduced his willingness and the police's willingness to include him in the delegations. Also, again the fact that he was Jewish.

[Chris]

Curiously, the Israel Schwartz who lived nearby at the date of the 1891 census, who in my opinion is pretty likely to have been the witness, was a watchmaker/watch-repairer later in life; he is listed as a watchmaker at 35 Cable Street in the Post Office Directories between 1920 and 1929. However, the earliest records of him, from the early 1890s, describe him as a tailor or tailor's presser.

[corey123]

Hello Chris,

Thanks for that. It is interesting.

[mariab]

Chris, do we by any chance have any records at all of Israel Schwartz having engaged in the theater? Lynn Cates is looking for that, but with no success so far. The attempt at research in theater records might be an exercise in futility, since the testimonies say nothing concrete, just that Schwartz was “of a theatrical appearance“.