Schwartz, a fraud?

[Chris]

I think "being in the theatrical line" is a euphemism for Jew.

If the phrase was used in that sense, it should be easy enough to find some examples using Google Books.

[Errata]

I have a question. The Star says that they traced Schwartz back to his place on Backchurch Ln. and said that he was "well dressed" and that "The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand". Does this seem odd to anyone else? I mean, reporters know the different between well dressed and as well dressed as a poor person can be. Typically they say someone was "neatly dressed" like they made an effort to be appropriate to the setting. But they say well dressed, and I thought this guy was destitute.

And then they say that fortunately an interpreter was at hand. And evidently a different interpreter than the one who helped him at the police station, or I imagine they would have said. And probably interviewed him as well. I gotta say, Hungarian is like no other language. It's closest linguistic relative is Finnish, and it ain't that close. And Hungary simply didn't have the population to release a large number of Hungarian speakers on London, who could walk by this scene and say "Why yes, I speak Hungarian". I mean, if you are trying to talk to a Ukrainian and a Russian speaker walked by, they kind of have a chance of making themselves understood. Like if you speak French and are trying to communicate to an Italian. Zero chance of this with Hungarian. And there wasn't a Hungarian section to the Jewish Ghetto in London, so he wasn't likely surrounded by Hungarians. Theoretically his wife spoke Hungarian, but if she was the translator, they would have said. So who was on hand?

It never really occurred to me before, but it seems far more likely that the Star reporter nicked a copy of the interview and embroidered on it, then that he traced an Eastern European Jew named Schwartz (which is a ridiculously common name for good reason) back to his house and fortuitously caught the guy dressed to the nines with an interpreter lurking in the hallway. I mean, I'm pretty sure that Schwartz would not have said that he "fled incontinently". I doubt that an interpreter would have the English for such a word.

Oh. And there are no quotes. Which is odd for an interview. Even one that is being translated. Quotes are much sexier. That's why the rest of the articles on that page are littered with them.

[mariab]

Errata,
the Victorian euphemism for Jew was “oriental“ or “foreign“, not “theatrical“. The interpreter who translated for Schwartz was most probably William Wess, the secretary of the IWMC. (As we have documentation that he translated for other Jewish people from the club.) He translated from Yiddish to English, not from Ungarian. Yiddish worked like a lingua franca for Jews.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Errata, Maria et al

Gavin Bromley did a large article, really two in one, about the Batty St lodger, and the second part on Israel Schwartz. With an assist from Sam and Debs he found Schwartz was Russian/Polish.

click this http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kuer.html

Schwartz's area was the NW corner of St George East tucked into Whitechapel near the finger of Mile End Old Town pointing west. There were thousands of immigrants in this area. Many were bi-lingual, speaking both English and Yiddish. The interpeter could have been one of literally hundreds of people.

Why he did not testify is a mystery. No one knows. I used to think it was because his account contained the cry of "Lipski" and the authorities didn't want that repeated at inquest. But have been told no repeatedly by the experts.

Roy

[packers stem]

No, they do not.

Errata suggested that a "theatrical appearance" might just mean that Schwartz looked like a stereotypical stage Jew. So it might, and that could be consistent with Abberline's observation (in relation to the significance of "Lipski") that he had a "strong jewish appearance."

But if you have the appearance of "being in the theatrical line," then that must mean that you look as though you are employed in a theatre, which is different from looking like a character on a stage.

Sorry Chris are you serious.
Which theatre employees are you referring to usher,lighting ,ticket kiosk,ice cream seller,that would be a giveaway in terms of appearance so as to be described as 'being in the theatrical line'

[mariab]

Thank you so much for the link to the Gavin Bromley article, Roy. I've heard people praising this article before. I'll read it later tonight.
To Packer's stem:
Most obviously “being in the theatrical line“ refers to actor.

[Chris]

Sorry Chris are you serious.
Which theatre employees are you referring to usher,lighting ,ticket kiosk,ice cream seller,that would be a giveaway in terms of appearance so as to be described as 'being in the theatrical line'

I'm simply pointing out what the phrase "in the theatrical line" means. You may not like it, but I don't know what I can do about that.

[packers stem]

Thank you so much for the link to the Gavin Bromley article, Roy. I've heard people praising this article before. I'll read it later tonight.
To Packer's stem:
Most obviously “being in the theatrical line“ refers to actor.

Hi Maria ,I agree
As does of 'theatrical appearance'

[Chris]

Hi Maria ,I agree
As does of 'theatrical appearance'

But the reason we're having this discussion is that Errata was suggesting that it didn't mean he looked as though he was an actor, but that he "strongly resembled the Jewish caricatures on stage." Obviously that's different.

[mariab]

I'm not so sure about the “Jew on stage factor“ which Errata's suggesting, but in my understanding “theatrical appearance“ might have meant everything from overdressed (which supposedly Schwartz is supposed to have been), to exaggerated speak and gestures, which also kind of fits with Schwartz's not a little convoluted and unstable testimony.

[Observer]

The fact is we're talking about one little reporter from The Star newspaper here. With a crack of his whip he descibes Schwartz as "of theatrical appearance" and 122 years later a whole bunch of you go primate waste actually believing that Schwartz might well have been employed in the theatrical trade. He was a trouser presser. I would advise taking the reporters description of Schwartz with a pinch of salt. In fact, in my honest opinion, apart from the inquest reports, the newspapers were guilty of speading quite large dollops of nonsense regarding the murders in every direction.

all the best

Observer

[Chris]

The fact is we're talking about one little reporter from The Star newspaper here. With a crack of his whip he descibes Schwartz as "of theatrical appearance" and 122 years later a whole bunch of you go primate waste actually believing that Schwartz might well have been employed in the theatrical trade. He was a trouser presser. I would advise taking the reporters description of Schwartz with a pinch of salt.

Yes, as I've said, I think Israel Schwartz the tailor's presser is most likely to be the witness. After all, he appears to be the only Israel Schwartz in the whole of England and Wales in 1891, and there he is living just a couple of blocks from the scene of the murder.

So I do take what the newspaper says about him appearing to be "in the theatrical line," and being Hungarian, with a pinch of salt. But at the same time, there's no harm in trying to make some kind of sense of what the Star report said.

[Observer]

No harm at all. I think Mariab comes the closest in suggesting that the reporter was taking the Michael regarding Schwartz's dramatic rendition of his oberservations on the morning in question. Thus his sarcastic quip in describing his as being in the theatrical profession.

[mariab]

Yes, that's what I meant – if I knew what “taking the Michael“ means in British English. (I guess it means getting annoyed?)

[Chris]

Yes, that's what I meant – if I knew what “taking the Michael“ means in British English. (I guess it means getting annoyed?)

I think this Wikipedia article gives a reasonable idea (I'd have said it could mean either taking a liberty or making fun of somebody):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taking_the_piss