Schwartz, a fraud?

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

" The reporter's source was William Wess, who's source was almost certain Israel Schwartz."

So what have we got here, then, Tom? Israel Schwartz reporting to Wess that he had observed a man chased down Fairclough Street by another man? How does that work, considering that Schwartz himself did some running that evening? Ar you suggesting some sort of translation error here?

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Fish,

There's obviously an error somewhere, but it's impossible to say on who's part.

Corey,

I think we as modern researchers often make things more difficult than we need to by viewing the evidence as mysterious obstacles to the truth instead of helpful guidelines that, when viewed in the right context, give us answers.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

To Corey, Fleet, Lynn, Fish, etc. - at this juncture, what is your opinion on Schwartz? Was he telling the truth or lying?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

To Corey, Fleet, Lynn, Fish, etc. - at this juncture, what is your opinion on Schwartz? Was he telling the truth or lying?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Telling the truth.

Why lie, especially when you are a foreigner in a new country. The last thing you want to do is cause trouble for yourself.

[corey123]

To Corey, Fleet, Lynn, Fish, etc. - at this juncture, what is your opinion on Schwartz? Was he telling the truth or lying?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

I don't believe he was lying about what he thought he saw.

Yours truly

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

"Hi Fish,
There's obviously an error somewhere, but it's impossible to say on who's part. "

Hi Tom! Actually, I do not think that there must be an error hidden in this. Wess himself would not have seen the chase, but instead taken part of another clubber´s experience. Note that the newspaper report/s do not speak of the secretary himself having seen the incident. Instead he says the murderer "was seen" running down Fairclough Street, and that would be an odd way to express something you had seen yourself.

"at this juncture, what is your opinion on Schwartz? Was he telling the truth or lying?"

I think that whatever assessment we make here must be very much influenced by the fact that what Schwartz said was interpreted for him. It is a nuisance, since we cannot tell to what extent this detail shaped the differences inbetween police report and newspaper ditto - if any.

If we accept that Schwartz said what is recorded in these two sources, my own feeling is that he was being honest - he reported what he saw, the way he experienced it. But all perceptions of the world around us include elements of personal interpretation, so it is not easy to say how spot on he was.
The curious element of BS man trying to drag Stride into the street is something that has a ring of truth to it - why invent such a thing? The same goes for the lowered voice.

On the whole, as I´ve often stated, I also think that Schwartz awarding himself the role of a coward speaks very much for the police report story being what he saw and perceived. And so, when in the Star story, he changes a pipe for a pistol, I really think that this reflects how Schwartz has realized that he has painted himself out as a yellowbelly, and tries to put his escape in a more becoming light; he ran because his life was at stake. An understandable renovation of a self-esteem lost, I should think.

On the whole, I think Schwartz was truthful - and if the Fairclough Street Race article/s are not a corroboration of this, I´d be very much surprised.

The best,
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Corey. I'm surprised, because of your previous posts I thought you were convinced Schwartz was lying.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

Hello Tom,

I believe it may be a possibility, however, the fact that the brain can and does play tricks on us and that our tendancy to rely on the information it sends us(even when it is wrong or not fully right) makes me think that he only got a glimps of something he didn't fully understand.

If that makes sence.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Tom,

I believe it may be a possibility, however, the fact that the brain can and does play tricks on us and that our tendancy to rely on the information it sends us(even when it is wrong or not fully right) makes me think that he only got a glimps of something he didn't fully understand.

If that makes sence.

Hi Corey.
Then, what do you think he thought he saw? and what do you think really was happening (between Stride and BS man)?

[c.d.]

Hello Tom,

I believe it may be a possibility, however, the fact that the brain can and does play tricks on us and that our tendancy to rely on the information it sends us(even when it is wrong or not fully right) makes me think that he only got a glimps of something he didn't fully understand.

If that makes sence.

Hi Corey,

Exactly. See the first post in the Modern Day Liz/BS Man Encounter thead.

c.d.

[corey123]

Hello Abby,

Well I think he saw a normal conversation. I don't think BS man threw her to the ground(remember William Wess's inquest testimony. He stated that when he left(a quarter after midnight, about twenty minutes before the sighting) the windows of the lecture room were still open. Now I am sure if this incident occured somebody would have heard it from the club, however when asked no one did)and I think that after he caught news to the murder he questioned himself(do you ever get those moments when something becomes apperant you question "maybe this happend"? and then you can't decide. ) I also think it is possible he came to the police with the story(again not saying he is being untruthful of witnessing something to clear away and possible suspicion from him.

Yours truly

[corey123]

Hello c.d.,

My point exactly.

thanks for that

[Tom_Wescott]

On the whole, as I´ve often stated, I also think that Schwartz awarding himself the role of a coward speaks very much for the police report story being what he saw and perceived. And so, when in the Star story, he changes a pipe for a pistol, I really think that this reflects how Schwartz has realized that he has painted himself out as a yellowbelly, and tries to put his escape in a more becoming light; he ran because his life was at stake. An understandable renovation of a self-esteem lost, I should think.

This is quite possible in that I could see Schwartz intentionally inflating his evidence for the press, particularly if it paints him in a less than cowardly light. I've always been bothered by the tendency of most writers to blame the Star reporter for beefing up the story, when it's at least just as possible that Schwartz himself is responsible. The words 'knife' and 'pipe' are so different in Hungarian that it's unlikely the translator is at fault in this instance.

I believe it may be a possibility, however, the fact that the brain can and does play tricks on us and that our tendancy to rely on the information it sends us(even when it is wrong or not fully right) makes me think that he only got a glimps of something he didn't fully understand.

But if Schwartz is telling the truth about his movements, then he caught much more than a glimpse of the couple together, the man and woman separately, and then Pipeman. In fact, he got a much better view than any other Ripper witness (unless one is inclined to include Hutchinson).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[corey123]

This is quite possible in that I could see Schwartz intentionally inflating his evidence for the press, particularly if it paints him in a less than cowardly light. I've always been bothered by the tendency of most writers to blame the Star reporter for beefing up the story, when it's at least just as possible that Schwartz himself is responsible. The words 'knife' and 'pipe' are so different in Hungarian that it's unlikely the translator is at fault in this instance.



But if Schwartz is telling the truth about his movements, then he caught much more than a glimpse of the couple together, the man and woman separately, and then Pipeman. In fact, he got a much better view than any other Ripper witness (unless one is inclined to include Hutchinson).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Yes it is possible. Like I said, this is only one of the possiblities I believe may have happened.

[Tom_Wescott]

There's interesting evidence that suggests Schwartz was not an honest witness, such as:

* His possible (I stop just short of saying probable) association with the Berner Street club.
* Evidence that the police eventually disregarded him as a viable witness, in spite of their Oct. '88 statements to the contrary
* The inconsistencies in his statement to the police and to the press.

However, there's also quite compelling evidence that he told the truth and saw what he saw:

* What he describes in not inconsistent with how the Ripper is reported to have behaved in Hanbury Street (Cadosch)
* No evidence contradicted his, which would be surprising if he was gambling and taking a shot with making up a statement.
* His description of BS Man grabbing Stride's shoulders (not arms, as we would expect a liar to fabricate) fits with the medical evidence in that her shoulders were bruised just prior to her being murdered.
* Unlike Emanuel Violenia, a lying witness whom Abberline and colleagues saw right through, Schwartz and his statement stood up to repeated questioning.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott