Schwartz, a fraud?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I have a few problems with your assesement.

First off.



You believe. That doesn't mean it is. I believe that he is false. Again that doesn't mean it is. Im not so sure the case being that he lied to anyone, just that he didn't see everything that happened and fillled in the holes himself.



First of all it wasn't raining very hard that night. That would in no way inhibit Schwartz from hearing her scream. Nor would the noise from the club, which was almost empty by the time she was dead anyhow. I agree with you suggestion that she was in no dangher, this is the point I am trying to make.

And lastly there is no evidence that she had a sore throat, and even if she did, this too would not inhibit her from screaming for her life if she need be.



This only works if you think BS is "Jack the Ripper".




You do realize once her throat was cut, she would be able to makew no sounds whatsoever apart from the weird gurgling sound you expect to hear when ones, carotidu artery was severed.

Yours truly

Hi Corey

You believe. That doesn't mean it is. I believe that he is false. Again that doesn't mean it is.

Of course, understood. Just my thoughts on it.

Im not so sure the case being that he lied to anyone, just that he didn't see everything that happened and fillled in the holes himself.

Then what happened in your opinion and what were the holes he filled in?

I agree with you suggestion that she was in no dangher, this is the point I am trying to make

OK-but my point is that she may have thought that she was still in no real danger because she thought the man was not JtR, just a man that was pissed off because he had spent some time and money on her and had not got his way. hence she was only yelling for him to stop (so not so loud), not screaming bloody murder for anyone to help her (which would have been louder).


This only works if you think BS is "Jack the Ripper".

I think there is a very good chance of it.

You do realize once her throat was cut, she would be able to makew no sounds whatsoever apart from the weird gurgling sound you expect to hear when ones, carotidu artery was severed.

Not sure if I believe this totally as i think that if the larynx is not cut than you can still vocalize, even with a cut throat/artery. But whatever, this was just a second less possibility that I had brought up and less likely than my main/first scenario which was him dragging her into the alley/yard after scaring off IS and then cutting her throat.

Could you elaborate what your opinion/theory is of what hapened with stride that night?

[c.d.]

Hi Abby,

Given the fact that the BS man threw her to the ground and issued a threat of violence (Lipski) towards Schwartz, why would Liz voluntarily go off with him? And if it was not voluntary and she was dragged, how did she manage to hold on to the cachous?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Given the fact that the BS man threw her to the ground and issued a threat of violence (Lipski) towards Schwartz, why would Liz voluntarily go off with him? And if it was not voluntary and she was dragged, how did she manage to hold on to the cachous?

c.d.

Hi cd
Given the fact that the BS man threw her to the ground and issued a threat of violence (Lipski) towards Schwartz, why would Liz voluntarily go off with him?

She didn't go voluntarily.

And if it was not voluntary and she was dragged, how did she manage to hold on to the cachous?

As another poster once said-"That dam cachous again!" HaHa.

Perhaps she clenched her hand around it while making a fist while fighting back.
Perhaps she thought it was of such importance that she was not going to let go of it.
Perhaps it was simply stuck to or lodged in her hand.

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Abby.

"Perhaps she clenched her hand around it while making a fist while fighting back."

Except they were found MUCH more tenuously perched than that. They were found between the thumb and forefinger.

Yes, those cachous are a bugbear for the traditional view. If not for them, I'd be stretching back in my arm chair right now weaving stories about top hats, Gladstone bags and blood lusts.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

The best answer would seem to be that she did not have them in her hand when thrown to the ground or they would have broken. It would also seem that any attempt to defend herself from the BS man would have dislodged them. The reasonable conclusion is that she had them out when killed because she felt no danger. That suggests (to me) that it was a client. It could also be someone she knew (a domestic) but that has its own set of problems.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

You'd have to ask yourself: is there anything to corroborate Schwartz's story? Is there anything contradicting his story?

[Abby Normal]

That dam cachous again!

Hi FM, LC, cd

That dam cachous has actually started to make me think that there is a possibility IS was wrong/made it up and that BS man was a fig newton of his imagination.

It sure would make everything alot less complicated if he would disapear.
Then i could see the "playing hard to get" (or maybe even not if BS man goes away)Stride and her client JtR go quietly into the yard with no fight.

[Fisherman]

Fleetwood Mac asks:

"is there anything to corroborate Schwartz's story?"

Yes there is - there is the article from The Scotsman stating that two men were seen running down Fairclough Street at 12.45 on the night at hand. The paper understandably thought that it was the murderer running away, chased by another man. But it tallies extremely well with Schwartz and Pipeman!

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

The flip side of that is that there is nothing to discredit his story other than speculation.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM, LC, cd

That dam cachous has actually started to make me think that there is a possibility IS was wrong/made it up and that BS man was a fig newton of his imagination.

It sure would make everything alot less complicated if he would disapear.
Then i could see the "playing hard to get" (or maybe even not if BS man goes away)Stride and her client JtR go quietly into the yard with no fight.

My view......

Fanny Moritmer is at the door.....her story backed up by someone who read about Mortimer's account and made his way to the police station......she's two doors up...hears nothing of Schwartz and associates.....

There are no bruises on Stride's knees etc....even though she is thrown to the ground.....

Pipe Man does not come forward.....

Brown.....Fanny Mortimer's couple etc....see nothing.....

Now.....you gotta be pulling' a few good old strings to give Schwartz the opportunity to see what he did with no one hearing sight nor sound.....

Fisherman states that a newspaper pretty much reiterated the same story printed in another newspaper.....nothing interesting in that.....two men seen running up the street as recalled by Schwartz.....no disrespect to Fisherman but doesn't sound like an eye witness account to me.....unlike Mortimer.....

Oh....and a couple of club members are milling about too....12.40ish....

And there is a window open right by the club....

No one hears a thing....only Schwartz......

Now I was reading Grainger's arrest the other night.....and was starting to give Schwartz the benefit of the doubt in that he was prepared to drag a woman off the street so why not Schwartz's assailant...except no one hears of Schwartz's event.....and we have a woman two doors up who hears 'the heavy measured tramp' of a policeman go past...and the cart fella's cart...and sees Goldstein......but does not see Schwartz and associates running around......

From what we know.....I'd give Schwartz's story a 15% chance of being something other than an invention.....and that's being kind.....

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM, LC, cd

That dam cachous has actually started to make me think that there is a possibility IS was wrong/made it up and that BS man was a fig newton of his imagination.

It sure would make everything alot less complicated if he would disapear.
Then i could see the "playing hard to get" (or maybe even not if BS man goes away)Stride and her client JtR go quietly into the yard with no fight.

The pattern is.....across the murders....no fight....I'd say killed around 12.42..

And you can bet your life that a people being targetted....felt targetted....and would have jumped at the chance of placing that murder outside of the club.....involvement or otherwise....

I think it was a JTR....in addition.....I think it had nothing to do with a club member.....or a boyfriend....

[Rubyretro]

The pattern is.....across the murders....no fight....I'd say killed around 12.42..

And you can bet your life that a people being targetted....felt targetted....and would have jumped at the chance of placing that murder outside of the club.....involvement or otherwise....

I think it was a JTR....in addition.....I think it had nothing to do with a club member.....or a boyfriend....

I'm with you, Fleetwood

[Fisherman]

Fleetwood Mac:

"Fisherman states that a newspaper pretty much reiterated the same story printed in another newspaper.....nothing interesting in that.....two men seen running up the street as recalled by Schwartz.....no disrespect to Fisherman but doesn't sound like an eye witness account to me..."

Excuse me? What else would it have been, if not an eyewitness account? It was stated that the secretary of the club (and that would be William Wess) said that the two men had been observed running down Fairclough Street, and it was further added that the man running at the back (reasonably Pipeman) had been recognized as a man that did not belong to the club, the inference being that the observer in all probability was a clubsman.

So even if it not an eyewitness account given by the observer himself, it is such an account related by the club secretary, methinks. And it serves prety well as a quite probable corroboration of Schwartz´s story.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Fleetwood Mac:

"I'd say killed around 12.42"

Lamb said, Fleetwood, that he arrived at the scene some ten minutes before Blackwell.
Blackwell had a watch, and fixed the time HE arrived at 01.16.
Spooner preceded both, and said that he arrived approximately five minutes before PC Lamb.

This is a rough outline, but it will hold a good deal of water. The one time I feel must be slightly corrected is Spooner´s. If Diemshitz clock observation was correct, it seems strange that he could drive his cart in, discover Stride, strike his match, go into the club and alert the clubsmen who entered the yard and found Stride cut, after that setting off in the hunt for a PC and stumbling upon Spooner at the corner of Chistian Street, the latter setting off for the yard and arriving there one minute after Diemshitz noticed the clock being 01.00.
This means that we probably need to add a minute or two to Spooners estimation, and place his arrival at Stride´s body at, say, 01.02 - 01.03.

That means, Fleetwood, that he arrived some twenty minutes after Stride was cut, according to you. So why was it that he observed blood still flowing from the wound at that stage?

Blackwell´s estimation was that Stride had died 20-30 minutes before his arrival at 01.16. That puts it at somewhere between 12.46 - 12.56. He also said that she would have bled to death comparatively slow, given the fact that only the left carotid artery was cut.

This all points to a time of death quite late, I´m afraid, My own take on it is that Spooners observation urges us to look at a time of death, in all probability quite close to the end of Blackwell´s time scale. This is what is the implication of weighing the observations of the crucial witnesses together with the wiew of the trained medicos at the scene. After that, we must realize that cutting time and dying time would have been some time apart, as observed by Blackwell. But Spooners observation urges us not to estimate too far away a time for that cut.
If we accept Schwartz´testimony, we end up with a time window that opens up at around 12.45-12.46. Since Blackwell estimates that it would have been closed some significant time before 12.56, we may need to detract perhaps four or five minutes, leaving a borderline drawn at latest around 12.51-12.52. So, we have a possible time window of some five to seven minutes in that yard, during which time she was cut. And we have Spooner telling us that the blood had not seized flowing altogether at around 01.02-01.03, suggesting that we ought to look for a late timing in all of this.

This does not leave us with any certainty or any exact timeline. But it does give us a rough and very useful schedule, enabling us to say that at 12.42, Stride was in all probability very much alive.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

Scotsman

Hello Fish. Regarding the Scotsman story--the tale was told by whom?

Cheers.
LC