Schwartz, a fraud?

[mariab]

Fisherman wrote:
All I am saying is that if Liz did it herself, then there is little more of a chance that she was left-handed. Likewise, if it was placed there by somebody standing on her opposite side, then a right-handed person would probably put it on her left side, whereas - just as you point out, a left-hander would probably put it on the right side.
I'm sorry, Fisherman, but I can assure you that it's not so. Traditionally flowers get attached to the right side of one's attire. And it all depends on how the dress Stride wore was cut, symmetrical or asymmetrical. Attaching a flower on someone is NOT the same as hitting someone, which is done more quickly and “instinctively“, so the factor righhanded/lefthanded plays an important role. Ask any tailor or dressmaker, and you'll see!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Fisherman and Maria,
This photo of Klosowski[aka George Chapman] a suspect known to have been particularly fond of flower adornments and here posing with a carnation in his lapel,shows him with the flower on his left.Any comments?[The Post Office Directory 1889 has his address at 126 Cable Street just past the arches Schwartz spoke of running towards-!]

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"I'm sorry, Fisherman, but I can assure you that it's not so. Traditionally flowers get attached to the right side of one's attire. And it all depends on how the dress Stride wore was cut, symmetrical or asymmetrical."

All sorts of things must be weighed in here, Maria, and the fact that Liz´flower was on her right side proves absolutely nothing, since we do not even know who put it there. But if you take a look at the pic Natalie provided, you will notice that Chapman wears his flower on his left side, and simplicity and dexterity speaks for the flower ending up on the side where you can use the advantage of your prioritized hand, so to speak. But just like you say, very much may need to be weighed in, and it is just a random observation on my behalf!

The best,
Fisherman

[Natalie Severn]

you will notice that Chapman wears his flower on his left side, and simplicity and dexterity speaks for the flower ending up on the side where you can use the advantage of your prioritized hand, so to speak.

I think thats a fair assessment Fisherman.I thank Maria too for her information , regarding the "correct" position of a flower in the lapel,
Best
Norma

[FrankO]

All I am saying is that if Liz did it herself, then there is little more of a chance that she was left-handed. Likewise, if it was placed there by somebody standing on her opposite side, then a right-handed person would probably put it on her left side, whereas - just as you point out, a left-hander would probably put it on the right side.

Hi Fish!

Not that it's a major point, but I don't agree you there. I'm left-handed, and I would naturally pin something like a flower or whatever to my left side. Also, I'd think that someone pinning a flower on another person's chest would use two hands and that there would not necessarily be a 'preferred' side to pin it on.

All the best,
Frank

[Rubyretro]

.

Also, I'd think that someone pinning a flower on another person's chest would use two hands and that there would not necessarily be a 'preferred' side to pin it on.

Totally agree , Frank ! I wear, on the left side, or the right, pinned flowersi indiscriminatly..never even thought twice about it (I'm right handed). I think that, if you're a bit artistic, you subconciously would pin
th flower to 'balance ' your other a clothing (a hat tilted to the right -flower on your left, a chunky ring on your left hand, flower on the right -etc).

If someone was pinning a flower on someone else, they'd probably use two hands as you say, Frank. I don't think that it has any bearing on anything.

Men would wear a flower in the button hole of their lapel (not pinned) -pinning the flower would be like wearing a bow tie on elastic.

I don't think that Liz would buy the flower for herself -but I certainly don't think that JtR would !...he made sure that he carefully took back his money each time he killed a prostitute..and took Annie's ring. He was either poor himself..or 'mean' !! I don't think that he'd waste money on a flower.

I certainly think that Liz had HER money taken off her, just like the rest of the victims..and if she had some extra, he'd take that too !! (If of course, BSM hadn't ALREADY got the money -if BSM HAD been intending to rob a 'Lipsky', I don't see why he wouldn't take Liz's money, once she was on the ground). I don't think 'robbery' was the motivation for attacking Liz in either case -but an 'opportunist' thing.

Mariab -of course people 'scream silently' all the time..as soon as they get into an altercation with someone and don't want to be overheard by 'outsiders' to the row; They 'scream' and 'shout instinctively' as a reaction
to the person they're 'fighting with' but (also instinctively) not very loudly, as they don't want anyone else to be alerted : it proves that she did not feel as
if she was about to be murdered by BSM ..and why Club members, or neighbours in Berner Street, didn't come running and witness the event.

There are loads of cachous in a little box..why does anyone think that they were bought the night of her death ?

I feel that people are unnecessarily complicating Liz's death..it doesn't seem so convoluted to Me.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Fish!

Not that it's a major point, but I don't agree you there. I'm left-handed, and I would naturally pin something like a flower or whatever to my left side. Also, I'd think that someone pinning a flower on another person's chest would use two hands and that there would not necessarily be a 'preferred' side to pin it on.

All the best,
Frank

Frank.....I'm right handed and always pin a poppy on my left side.....second nature really......and surely 99% of right handers wear a watch on the left hand......so it's fair to say 99% of right handers would wear a flower on the left side.......vice versa left handers. Similarly.....when I have pinned a flower or something to someone else's chest...then I've always gone their left hand side/my right hand side.....just seems natural to me....perhaps it's just much easier to navigate for a right handed person.

And the other factor is.......where would Liz have wanted the flower pinned? I imagine she would have guided it with her hands.......if someone pinned a flower to her chest......

[lynn cates]

paper

Hello Ruby. The cachous were not in a box--they were wrapped in tissue paper. And these were found between thumb and forefinger.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Observer:

"Placed there by her left handed killer?"

Quite possibly, Observer! All I am saying is that if Liz did it herself, then there is little more of a chance that she was left-handed. Likewise, if it was placed there by somebody standing on her opposite side, then a right-handed person would probably put it on her left side, whereas - just as you point out, a left-hander would probably put it on the right side.

The best,
Fisherman

Agreed.

If you think about how you cut a sandwich.....as a right handed person....I put the sandwich slightly to my right...use the left hand to steady....and the right hand to cut......simply because it's easier to navigate.....similarly with a flower.....a right handed person would go instinctively to the right of another person...steady with the left hand and pin it with the right.....think about the alternative....going to someone else's left....it's not natural.....and makes it much more difficult to navigate...similarly when a right hand person is writing he doesn't place the paper to his left...he places it slightly to his right...because it's natural...try writing with the paper to your left and see how much more unnatural it is.....

[FrankO]

I'm right handed and always pin a poppy on my left side.....second nature really......and surely 99% of right handers wear a watch on the left hand......so it's fair to say 99% of right handers would wear a flower on the left side.......vice versa left handers.

Aha - I always knew I was special, FM!

But seriously, I don’t think that’s fair. Just because you do it doesn’t mean that you’re part of 99% and I’m part of only 1%. If that would in fact be 99%. Furthermore, watches are put around wrists, so you simply don’t have a lot of choice as you only have 2 of those: if you use the one hand, you are only left with the other wrist to put it on. This is not true for pinning whatever on chests: whichever hand you use, you still have 2 sides of the chest at your disposal.

And the other factor is.......where would Liz have wanted the flower pinned? I imagine she would have guided it with her hands.......if someone pinned a flower to her chest......

Now that’s something that fits with the bottom line as I see it: on whichever side of Stride’s chest the flower was pinned, that doesn’t tell us a thing about whether Stride or her killer was left-handed or right-handed.

All the best,
Frank

[mariab]

Hello everybody,
I think that Frank van Oploo got it right when he wrote:
Frank van Oploo:
Also, I'd think that someone pinning a flower on another person's chest would use two hands and that there would not necessarily be a 'preferred' side to pin it on.
It would also depend on the attire she was wearing, if it was symmetrical or assymetrical, where exactly her scarf hang, etc.. Exactly as Rubyretro said, and she sould know best, since she's working in the fashion business, right? Plus she's French! (Oh, and by the by, Ruby, I just cracked and bought some French lingerie tonight! Étam, which is not the expensive kind, but still, very essence-of-Pa-ris!) And a flower is not a utility item which one wears every day, like a watch, so I don't think that righhanded/lefthanded plays any part here.
By the way, why can't anyone fancy that the flower might have been stolen from somewhere? It's a total piece of cake to steal a flower.
Ruby, about the cachous it's what Lynn Cates said, Stride didn't have en entire box of them, but about 6 of them, wrapped in tissue paper. She was truly poor as Job. She also had 3 or 4 buttons in her pocket, which probably speaks against Wescott's theory that at some point her assailant robbed her at knifepoint. Because if she went for her money in her deep pockets and came up with the cachous too, she might have come up with the buttons as well. But the buttons were found still “tidy“ in her pockets.

[Fisherman]

Since I notice that there is still an ongoing discussion on the subject of who pins a flower where, I think that Frank van Oploo has offered the most insightful detail in all of this so far (he often does, by the way):

"Not that it's a major point"

Exactly so - even if we knew whether Stride was left- or righthanded, or ambi-dexter for that matter, we still don´t know if she pinned the flower to her chest herself. And therefore we could not possibly read anything at all of value into it!
I merely offered this little bit since Rubyretro posted earlier on the thread, encouraging us to work along the line that Stride adjusted to statistics - that is to say, that she would have been right-handed. Alas, we cannot tell whether she was or not, just as we cannot use the flower to gain any insight in the same subject.
Wasn´t that bow on her scarf on the right side of her neck, by the way ...?
Sorry ´bout that!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"By the way, why can't anyone fancy that the flower might have been stolen from somewhere? It's a total piece of cake to steal a flower."

Yes, it could have been stolen, Maria. But a poor girl who is kissing and cuddling with a respectably clad man, strolling away with him down a nightly street, his hand over her shoulders, generally do not need to resort to such things.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

I agree with you, Fisherman, it makes more sense that the man (or one of the men) spending the evening of Sept. 30 on the streets with Stride gave her the flower. But he might have stolen it, or simply picked it from a square or flower pot at a window sill. (No idea though if Victorian Whitechapel featured pots of geraniums around, as Paris did at that time and still does today, so I might be talking complete nonsense here.)

[FrankO]

Exactly so - even if we knew whether Stride was left- or righthanded, or ambi-dexter for that matter, we still don´t know if she pinned the flower to her chest herself. And therefore we could not possibly read anything at all of value into it!

Thanks for the compliment, Fish, and good to see we agree!

Alas, we cannot tell whether she was or not, just as we cannot use the flower to gain any insight in the same subject.

Perhaps it would be better to use the package of cachous, which she held in her left hand??

Vi ses!
Frank