Schwartz and Brown

Just a few comments:

Fisherman - How do we know that the man seen with Liz was a lover and not a client?

Lynn - Liz was a prostitute and so I am sure she had clients (i.e., men in her life) but we know of no lovers.

With regard to "Lizzie" - Schwartz was intimidated enough by the BS man so much so that he ran off. It would seem reasonable that the BS man was looking in his direction when he yelled out. It seems much more likely therefore that he yelled Lipski. Why yell Lizzie if he was looking at Schwartz?

c.d.

I would agree with the above cd, I dont see a call that Schwartz felt was directed at him or at Pipeman actually being directed at Liz herself.

Considering that Batty Street, a block or so away, was pivotal in the Lipksi case, and that Israel is a non english speaking Jew, a racial slur might be more appropriate.

Which would indicate that BSM is probably a Gentile, which is not what Investigators thought Jack was.

And this taunt in connection with an altercation in which a woman he just grabs falls in the process would not be something that might assure said woman that she is not in immediate danger....which the cachous in her hand indicate was her state of mind at that moment.

For Liz to have cachous in her hand so soon after an alleged altercation can mean only a few possible things....

1) She knew BSM, whether he stays with her or not.
2) She didnt know BSM, but he didnt stick around to pose an ongoing threat to her
3) She knew someone else in the yard that she went to for what she thought was safety after the altercation...disputed by the testimony of Eagle and Lave at least
4) She was in the company of people she thought would protect her from BSM
5) There was no threatening incident that happened just before she was killed

I see value in a few of those possibilities, but I feel most comfortable with number 5 at this stage.

Cheers cd

[c.d.]

Just a few comments:

Fisherman - How do we know that the man seen with Liz was a lover and not a client?

Lynn - Liz was a prostitute and so I am sure she had clients (i.e., men in her life) but we know of no lovers.

With regard to "Lizzie" - Schwartz was intimidated enough by the BS man so much so that he ran off. It would seem reasonable that the BS man was looking in his direction when he yelled out. It seems much more likely therefore that he yelled Lipski. Why yell Lizzie if he was looking at Schwartz?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Lizzie

Hello Fish. Thanks. Whoever came up with it first, it certainly makes more sense than Lipski. Of course, I can see why a monolingual Hungarian Jew from Whitechapel would be prepared to hear otherwise.

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates asks:

"I don't suppose you recall the provenance?"

It has slipped my mind, Iīm afraid. But I know that for example Robert McLaughlin has written about it on these boards, in a dissertation called "Interpreting Lipski". But it goes further back than that!

The best,
Fisherman

Hi again all,

So many posts since my last I just wanted to respond to a vexation that cd had. And others.

IF Israel Schwartz did in fact see what he says he did where he says he did then the "altercation" that happens between Liz and BSM may have been nothing more than a rude attempt to grab her and take her away from her location that that she resisted.....if he lets go of his grip at all or she does, she falls.......and we do have the witness saying he saw him help her up.

This doesnt sound like an assault technically...but if an encounter with a stranger, it surely would have shaken her a bit I would think.

If Liz actually knew the man and he sort of snuck up on her and grabbed her before she knew who it was, she might have pulled back as a reflex.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

provenance

Hello Fish. Zounds! Egad! An honest man!

I don't suppose you recall the provenance?

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"This is Fisherman's notion. Makes more sense that "Lipski."

I endorse the suggestion, Lynn - but it is not mine from the outset, Iīm afraid! Itīs been about for a good number of years by now.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

many questions

Hello CD. Well:

"I am not aware of anything on the record that shows the BS man yelled "Lizzie."

This is Fisherman's notion. Makes more sense that "Lipski."

"There is nothing to indicate that the BS man and Liz knew each other. But if they did, who could the BS man be? Kidney?"

I doubt it. Kidney would have cracked under interrogation.

"We know of no other man in her life."

Well, what did she do for a living?

"Seems like way too many questions to support the domestic argument."

Indeed, a veritable plethora of them. But only a fraction of the questions involved in a Jack scenario.

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

Cd asks:

"Who was this man? You have created a character who may or may not exist and which we know absolutely nothing about."

Oh, but we do! He was about 5 ft 6, he was of a sturdy built, and he was probably better of than Stride, since he could afford to dress respectably. He was affectionate with Stride, and he was soft-spoken, giving the impression of being a man of some education.

I would not say that amounts to nothing, c.d!

" if you are going to create a character why not jazz him up a little and give him a little pizzazz? Maybe make him the Ambassador to France or give him X Ray vision like Superman. You have total carte blanche here since you are calling the shots."

For the simple reason that ordinary people are so much more ordinary than many of us would like to believe. The same thing goes for killers and murders too, as a matter of fact - more often than not, they are quite tedious affairs.

Surely, c.d, you may notice that while I throw forward such a colourless and common character as the killer of Stride, there are those who actually follow your advice and bring something a lot more fantastic than the ambassador of France on the stage - namely a ferocious, kidney-collecting, eviscerating monster of a serial killer.

One must say that they make full use of THEIR carte blanche...!

Have a nice weekend!

Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Fisherman,

But you are claiming that the BS man was someone other than Kidney are you not and that he and Liz had a relationship? Who was this man? You have created a character who may or may not exist and which we know absolutely nothing about. Therefore, you can make him do whatever you believe he would have done or not done in order to align with the facts. But if you are going to create a character why not jazz him up a little and give him a little pizzazz? Maybe make him the Ambassador to France or give him X Ray vision like Superman. You have total carte blanche here since you are calling the shots.

I guess we have not made much progress because I don't see any indication that the BS man knew Liz. It is just as probable that he was a disgruntled potential customer or somebody who simply took offense to her standing where she was. It is just as probable that he threw her down, cussed her out and went on his way.

c.d.

P.S. Leaving for the day. We will have to continue our discussion at a later time. Have a good weekend all.

P.P.S. These boards would be quite dull if everyone agreed on everything.

[Fisherman]

C.d asks:

" Those who hold to the anger theory point to Liz being thrown to the ground as a sign of that anger. If we remove that anger where does that leave us in terms of motive?"

My suggestion remains that the killers decision to kill was a very late one. I think he entered the yard with Stride in a mental disposition that was of such a character so as to allow for a feeling of ease on Strides behalf - thus the cachous, c.d!
I have thrown forward the notion that Stride was the one in the driving seat inside the yard; I think she told the man off for having acted the way he did outside the gates, and I believe that he was regretful and realized that he ran the risk of loosing her. But it was not until Stride confirmed this that he decided to kill. Like I said numerous times before, if this is correct, then it is the age-old motive of jealousy along the line "If I canīt have her, no-one else will either!" that we are looking at.
So, no anger brought into the yard, but instead a repentful mind and an anxiety and a waryness of possibly being given the slip.

This suggestion of mine should of course not be taken as word-by-word truth. It is a guideline, trying to show what kind of sentiments may have guided the developments inside the yard, c.d. But the general idea would not be far off the mark, I feel.

The best, c.d!
Fisherman

P S. On your post to Lynn Cates, saying: "There is nothing to indicate that the BS man and Liz knew each other" - have we really not gotten any further than this??

[Jon Guy]

I am drawn back to Nichols, and the witness reports, which indicate that she was initially attacked in Brady street, and sounds of running or of a chase...could that haved been Polly beiing dragged along by a hand.

Hi Richard

This was the incident where a woman was carried up Brady St to the London Hospital, and has absolutely nothing to do with Polly Nichols.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Not a bit of it. The hypothesis, unless I am mistaken, is that BSM thought Liz was soliciting (or something of that sort) and so tried to get her to come away, pulling her. He yelled (and this is Fisherman's point), "Lizzie!" and here beginneth, more or less, the Schwartz business.

Later, they went into the yard, away from the public location on Berner, ostensibly to discuss the situation. Liz was exiting, after venting her spleen, and went for the cachous (like a smoker pauses to light up). Something infuriated BSM and he "saw red," yanked her over backward by the scarf (her grip tightening with the incipient choke), cutting her (and the scarf) as she was falling.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I am not aware of anything on the record that shows the BS man yelled "Lizzie." There is nothing to indicate that the BS man and Liz knew each other. But if they did, who could the BS man be? Kidney? We know of no other man in her life. At least Kidney would have a motive since Liz left him. But he also has a track record of hard drinking and beating Liz. Would Liz really want to go back into a yard with him? Does he seem like somebody who could maintain a nice, quiet, reasonable "discussion?" So if it wasn't Kidney, we have to invent a lover for Liz (the man she left Kidney for?) and give him a motive. Jealousy perhaps? Maybe. But he was the winner in that Liz left Kidney for him. Did he not know that Liz was a prostitute? If you are going to be dating a prostitute, it really shouldn't come as a big surprise that she would be seeing other men. If he just found out, you would think that there would be a loud argument in which he demanded an explanation.

Seems like way too many questions to support the domestic argument.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"In which case, what's wrong with just hurling her to the ground there and then? Why spin her around and throw her in the opposite direction from that which he originally intended to escort her? If that isn't a problem for you, and you don't think that's remotely strange, that's fine."

It is no problem at all, Ben. To begin with, what makes you think he did NOT throw her to the ground "there and then"? I think it would have happened a mere second or two after the botched attempt to drag her out into the street.
As for the spinning her round, you will be aware that it could be that she broke loose by spinning away from him - and subsequently fell. If, on the other hand, he DID throw her to the ground, why would we need to accept that he did so in the opposite direction of the street? He may have flung her to the side, and that would acount for the spinning movement!

"I don't think that necessarily follows. It's equally likely that he "believed" that Stride didn't have a particularly loud voice."
NO it is not. Not at all, actually. Then he would have used the extremely strange sentence: "She cried out for all she was worth, but she could only cry out at a low voice".
Silly suggestion, is it not? Which is why we have to acceptthat as Schwartz spoke of her keeping her voice down, IT FOLLOWS that her voice was at such a low level as to make him believe she had more to give. Letīs not leave rationality and sense behind, Ben, even if we find it hard to concede obvious points!

"I registered genuine surprise at what I considered a rather thrusting and boastful warning not to challenge your theory."

Well, Ben, then you were wrong. I welcome any alternative scenario, in order to have my own ditto thoroughly tested.

"I think he's very close to Marshall's man, personally. So someone else arrived on the scene in between the two visits from the Marshall/BS man? That must have been a very brief visit from Smith's man."

If you go through my posts, Ben, you will notice that I have left Smithīs man out. The reason is that I do not see him as being identical with the other three. We have argued over this before, and I remain at my stance that the PCīs man does not tally as well as the other do. And a PC would be a good judge, mind you.

"So, by extension, you can't be "in any way certain" of BS man having a respectable appearance for precisely the same reason?"

That is correct, Ben. But since we know that he was 5 ft 5 and sturdy and clad in dark clothes and a peaked cap, we know that he tallies well with Marshalls man and Best and Gardners ditto, and since they said the very word "respectable", I think most anybody would judge a guess that the Stars mentioning of the same word actually points to a hit a very well educated one.
Perhaps not you, though?

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Richard,

From my perspective, BS man as Liz's killer, has a number of problems. But let's just address Liz being thrown to the ground per Schwartz:

1. If the BS man did indeed throw Liz to the ground and then threaten Schwartz, is it not reasonable to assume that he was angry? Why then would a street veteran like Liz go off with him voluntarily and then decide that this was a good time to pop in a cachous?

2. If Liz's falling to the ground was accidental or unintentional and was not an expression of anger, why then does the BS man kill her? The anger must come later. That would make for one very volatile BS man and no argument was overheard.

It seems either way that there are some real problems here.

c.d.