Fanny Mortimer

[Rob Clack]

Hi Gareth,

The Telegraph got it wrong. Lloyds Weekly News Saturday 7 October 1888was a bit more specific:



Also there wasn't a Bakers in Berner Street.

Rob

[perrymason]

Hi all,

It should be added here that in one account Fanny statement reads as if she was at her door off and on from around 12:30am until 1am,...and we are left to assume that during her times away from the door, Lave looking into the street from the gates at around 12:30-40am, Eagle entering the yard at 12:40am via the gates resulting in his being there when Lave said he was there , Israel seeing an altercation with the woman exclaiming and the assailant yelling at witnesses, and Diemshutz pulling into the yard.

But she does see Goldstein. Although it would be physically impossible for him to be doing what she said, which was that he turned and "looked up at the club" as he passed by. The wall Liz is found by would be already passed when he is at the open gates, to look sideways and up meant he was looking towards the back of the yard,...to see the club window or wall he would have had to look up and back over his shoulder. A 90 degree angle as his line of sight when in front of, and parallel to, the gates, would not result in him seeing the club at all.

What Fanny couldnt see is the probably the most likely place for the killer of Liz Stride to have come from....inside Dutfields Yard.

We are told no-one was in that yard by Club members, yet we know 2 witnesses who said they were in it ...at the same time that night near the time of the murder... at 12:40am.

Goldstein may be passing while Liz is being killed or is already cut.

That makes him the most valued sighting as far as Fannys contributions go....and her statements that she was surprised that Mrs D didnt hear anything when she was feet from the murder site in the kitchen, which had an open window and ajar door.

Its what Fanny didnt see or hear that is so curious....none of the critical witness events suggested by Schwartz.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

The Telegraph got it wrong. Lloyds Weekly News Saturday 7 October 1888was a bit more specific

Well, well... I'd never seen that account before. Many thanks for putting me and the record straight, Rob. Perhaps it was more a case of "tobecko shop" being misheard as "the baker's shop", then! (Seriously.)

Also there wasn't a Bakers in Berner Street.

There was, according to William Marshall's testimony: "There is a gas lamp over the baker's shop at 70 Berner street, at the corner of Boyd street."

Does that make us "quits"?

[Chris]

There was, according to William Marshall's testimony: "There is a gas lamp over the baker's shop at 70 Berner street, at the corner of Boyd street."

And that's the baker's that was later run by one Morris Kozminski, strangely enough.

[Sam Flynn]

And that's the baker's that was later run by one Morris Kozminski, strangely enough.

...renowned for its gutter-ready loaves, no doubt

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Rob and Sam

Firstly can I thank you both for your input, I owe you both a pint next time we bump into each other.

It would seem that I had the cart coming the wrong way up (rather than down) the street. It would also appear to make Fanny’s statement more credible.

I’m still worried about the grapes however and wonder if this is an elaboration of hers or the reporter reporting it?

It looks as if we have also established that rather than standing outside the house for ten minutes that she was in and out of the house. Which makes me wonder why?

And that she was probably closer to BS man than Schwartz when he shouted “Lipski” yet apparently heard nothing?

Anyway many thanks again for saving my bacon

Yours Jeff

[Rob Clack]

There was, according to William Marshall's testimony: "There is a gas lamp over the baker's shop at 70 Berner street, at the corner of Boyd street."

Does that make us "quits"?

Only just

I was going by the 1889 Directory and there was nothing listed at that address.



The directories I've seen either side has William Schutz, Baker, in 1882 and Wolf Abrahams, Baker in 1890 so it was probably one of them.

Rob

[Steve S]

Incidentally..Am I the only one who gets a bit confused with Schwarz's 'opposite sides of street'...If he crossed roughly at the yard entrance..And Pipeman crossed at the same time...wouldn't He have had to pass him pretty close on the other side....or was he looking back which would explain the fear of being followed...?
Steve

[Jeff Leahy]

Schwartz and BS are on the right hand of the street. The same side as 36 Berner Street. And the same side as the entrance to Dutfield Yard.

BS must have walked passed Fanny's front door and window and met Stride only about 20-30 feet from Fanny's front door.

Schwartz crossed over (at some piont) but was on the opposite side of the street.

Pipeman appeared from the pub on the corner of Fairclough Street Number 42 Berner street. The same side as Dutfeild yard. But on the opposite side to Schwartz.

Schwartz runs to the railway arch. My Guess is that he goes straight down Berner street (which was longer than today) to Ellen Street, along to church lane and down to pinchin street. A long way to run?

Pirate

[Steve S]

Of course...Doh!...Schwartz crossing over changes his perspective of the 'opposite' side........

[Jeff Leahy]

I wouldn't give yourself a hard time. Berner Street and the various statements are a headache.

All the best

Pirate

[perrymason]

I wouldn't give yourself a hard time. Berner Street and the various statements are a headache.

All the best

Pirate

Not the least of which comes from Schwartz himself. Assuming that Inquest omission means something.

Best regards

[Steve S]

So who's going to do the animation with all the various 'witness's'....see who'd bump into each other......?

[Jeff Leahy]

36 Berner Street was within spitting distance of Dutfields Yard.

[ATTACH]6030[/ATTACH]

Rob

Hi everyone

Currently doing some research into Berner Street and I am having difficulty with James Brown statement and siting of Liz Stride. He claims to have lived at 35 Fairclough Street but I cant find that on this map and wondered if anyone has a wider veiw?

`But everything about his statement is puzzling, he claims to have gone to a chandlers shop on the corner of Berner Street and Fairclough Street but the only premises I can find is the pub at 46 and Packers Shop window. I was wondering if the 'L' shape on this map, by broad school,
was a premises? He then claims to have taken quarter of an hour to go home, eat his food before hearing the alarm for murder? Seems a long time get home?

Also there were reports that night of another couple in the area and I wondered if anyone could shed any light on those source articles?

Many thanks Jeff

PS going by the numbers we can see in Fairclough Street I would guess that his house was on the other side of Fairclough Street and would question whether he ever had a view of Dutfields Yard at all?

[lynn cates]

slippage

Hello Pirate. I think you are right that there is a bit of slippage in his testimony. I suppose one such is that he didn't see her flower. Of course, there could be a logical explanation for that.

There was a purported sighting of 2 sweethearts nearby. Could there be a conflation?

Also, did he not claim that he was "nearly" certain? That does allow some wriggle room.

The best.
LC