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  • Fanny Mortimer

    FACTS “ Mrs Fanny Mortimer, the wife of a carman named William Mortimer, who lived at 36 Berner St, three doors from the club, told a reporter for the evening news Evening News that she had gone outside shortly after she had ‘heard the measured, heavy stamp of a policeman passing the house on his beat’. She stood at her door for no more than ten minutes, she said, and had neither seen nor heard anything unusual. The only person in the street was a young man carrying a shiny black bag who entered from commercial Road, walked briskly down Berner Street, looked up at the club as he passed, and turned the corner by the broad School at the bottom of the street. She had returned indoors, bolted the door and prepared for bed, which in the front room on the ground floor. About four minutes later she heard a pony and cart pass by and remarked on it to her husband.

    For some reason Mrs Mortimer was not called to give evidence at the inquest, which is odd because, although she didn’t see anything, her testimony is crucial to estimating the time Stride was murdered. Exactly when Mrs Mortimer went to her door is uncertain. She said she had gone outside after hearing the measured tread of what she assumed t be PC Smith passing on his beat, which would therefore have put her outside between 12.30 and 12.45 am, but if she had been outside at that time she would have seen the couple seen by PC Smith, would have seen Charles Letchford passing through the street at 12.30 am, Eagle Morris returning to the club at 12.35 am, a club member named Joseph Lave taking a stroll at or about 12.40 am and an assault on a woman outside the club at 12.45 am. Mrs Mortimer saw none of those people and none of those people said they saw her, all of which suggests that Mrs Mortimer did not go to her door immediately after hearing a policeman pass by (or if she did then PC Smith was much later than he said) We also know that the man she did see was named Leon Goldstein, who lived at nearby 22 Christian Street and went along to the police station after reading about himself in the newspaper. He had left a coffee house at Spectacle Ally and passed Berner Street shortly before 1 am. His bag, he said contained empty cigarette boxes. The evidence therefore points to Mrs Mortimer having gone to the door about 12.45 am. And returning indoors shortly before hearing a pony and cart pass by, which we know was at 1 am.”

    Hi everyone

    I was pacing up and down Berner Street over the weekend trying to get the various timings in my head but could not figure everything out. Fore instance where exactly was Mrs Mortimer Standing at 36 Berner Street?

    So when I got home I did some checking but couldn’t find a thread on Fanny Mortimer. Also the Even News account on casebook differs slightly from the account given in the FACTS.. http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/w/Fanny_Mortimer.html

    No mention of Mrs Mortimer hearing a policeman fore instance, and where does her account of the grapes come from?

    So I thought I’d start a thread and see if anyone is interested in piecing together Fanny Mortimer and her story. While she may not have seen anything. Surely her account is one of the most important when considering what happened at Berner Street?

    So what I’m interested in is where 36 Berner Street would be today. And how many accounts we have of Fanny Mortimer’s statement. And of course any detail on Mrs Mortimer herself?

    All the best

    Pirate

  • #2
    Ahoy there Pirate!

    Having just read both accounts - the one you quote and the one on the Casebook witnesses section - it strikes me that Mrs Mortimer must have gone out twice - the clue is in the word "previously" :

    It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

    Makes me think she stood at her door (some time between roughly 12.45 and 12.55 am, seeing only Goldstein - the account you posted), then went indoors, heard the commotion and came out again (the account posted on the Casebook witnesses section).

    Of course, I may have this completely arseways. Just struck me as a possibility.

    Regards,
    Harry
    aye aye! keep yer 'and on yer pfennig!

    Comment


    • #3
      by the way

      An interesting sidelight on the reliability of individual police officer's opinions on the case, that Walter Dew apparently said Mrs Mortimer was "the only person to see the Ripper in the vicinity of one of his crimes" - referring to Goldstein, and completely unaware, it seems, that he had been eliminated. Hence the myth of the Gladstone bag, I presume.
      aye aye! keep yer 'and on yer pfennig!

      Comment


      • #4
        In 1888 Fanny Mortimer was 48 years old and married to 49 year old William.

        Mrs Mortimer saw and spoke to the "other" couple, who had been seen by Brown by the Board School in Fairclough St as he retuned from the shop. He appeared at the inquest and said he thought the woman was Stride.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Harry

          yes that is an interesting comment perhaps she was out side at different times.

          I also found the comment about the grapes interesting. I thought only packer had mentioned grapes. I was also trying to figure out how long afterpassing Mrs Mortimers house the cart reached the yard?

          However without a more precise fix on 36 Berner st its difficult to estimate how long it took. It helps enormously actually being in the space and pacing up and down, its quite a long road Berner St..and the new housing estate, one must presume now cuts along its full length. And as an aside the railway arch Schwartz is meant to have run to is right down by Pinchen Street..a long way.

          Still I like your idea that she went out, went in and back out again. Do you think she was having a pipe? seems an odd thing to do that time of night when its cold a damp?

          Pirate

          PS Jon are you saying that Mrs Mortimer also saw the couple Brown saw? I have no mention of that?
          Last edited by Jeff Leahy; 06-30-2009, 04:11 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Jeff

            Daily News Oct 1st:

            Fanny Mortimer: A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.

            Comment


            • #7
              36 Berner Street was within spitting distance of Dutfields Yard.

              Click image for larger version

Name:	Berner Street May 1899.jpg
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              Rob

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              • #8
                Also the Daily News 1st Oct:

                Mrs Mortimer: A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

                It seems she went to lock the door after she heard the measured footsteps pass at 12.45, she stayed there for ten minutes, closing her door after seeing Goldstein pass. It was just after 01.00 am when she joined onlookers in the yard of the Club.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thats interesting. I wonder which corner she meant?

                  Clearly judging by the map kindly provided by Rob. BS and Schwartz must have passed Fanny's Door. However surely Deimschutz cart didnt, unless it was coming down berner Street in the same direction as Schwartz and BS had come? For some reason I was seeing it the other way around the cart coming up the street...

                  So if the cart came down it passed Fannys door only perhaps a minute before he discovered the body.

                  Pirate

                  Also could the footsteps have been BS man?
                  Last edited by Jeff Leahy; 06-30-2009, 05:14 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    PS I 'm assuming that pipeman appears from 46 berner st where the pub was situated? Is it not strange that Fanny doesn't hear the shout of Lipski? or running feet? at whatever time it took place she was surely close enough to hear unless she disappeared into the back yard to use the toilet at some point..even then you'd think it would stand out.

                    Pirate

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pirate Jack View Post
                      Clearly judging by the map kindly provided by Rob. BS and Schwartz must have passed Fanny's Door. However surely Deimschutz cart didnt...
                      I'm sure he didn't, Jeff. Diemschutz mentions at one point that he knew the time from the clock at the baker's shop on the corner of Berner Street - that particular corner being South of Dutfield's Yard. This makes sense as, having returned from Westow Hill, Diemschutz would've approached Berner Street from the South.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        I'm sure he didn't, Jeff. Diemschutz mentions at one point that he knew the time from the clock at the baker's shop on the corner of Berner Street - that particular corner being South of Dutfield's Yard. This makes sense as, having returned from Westow Hill, Diemschutz would've approached Berner Street from the South.
                        Hi Sam trust you are enjoying the heat wave.

                        Yes I agree and always believed that the cart came from the south and turned left into the yard. However the FACTS clearly state:

                        "About four minutes later she heard a pony and cart pass by and remarked on it to her husband."

                        Isnt that a little odd, considering that the cart never passed her front door?

                        or have I missed something?

                        All the best

                        Pirate

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Diemschutz came from the Commercial Road end of Berner Street. This is from The East London Observer 6 October 1888/:

                          Lewis Dienischitz [Diemschutz], who is the steward of the club, found the body, and this is his version of the discovery: "On Saturday," he says, "I left home about half-past eleven in the morning and returned home exactly at one a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road.

                          Rob

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Cheers Rob.

                            That would suggest that Deimishcutz came from the top of the road passing Fanny Mortimer, as she states, and turns right into yard.

                            If there's any chance we could get agreement here I would be most grateful. It's quite important.

                            Many thanks to you both for your time

                            Jeff

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rob Clack View Post
                              Diemschutz came from the Commercial Road end of Berner Street. This is from The East London Observer 6 October 1888/:

                              Lewis Dienischitz [Diemschutz], who is the steward of the club, found the body, and this is his version of the discovery: "On Saturday," he says, "I left home about half-past eleven in the morning and returned home exactly at one a.m. Sunday morning. I noticed the time at a tobacco shop in the Commercial-road.
                              That doesn't tally with his inquest testimony as reported in the (Daily Telegraph, 2nd October, Rob:

                              "Lewis Dienishitz, having affirmed, deposed: I reside at No. 40 Berner-street, and am steward of the International Workmen's Club. I am married, and my wife lives at the club too, and assists in the management. On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at the baker's shop at the corner of Berner-street."

                              Could this be a case of a thick Eastern European accent getting in the way? In other words, could "der backer shop" have been confused for "tobacco shop"? We know that there was a baker's shop at the corner of Berner Street, after all.
                              Last edited by Sam Flynn; 07-01-2009, 12:31 AM.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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