Hutch's Man

[Abby Normal]

hi john
IMHO it dosnt seem mary Kelly (or stride for that matter) was actively engaged in prostitution, especially on the nights of there death. I mean what person engaged in prostitution is going to hang out with a client for so long? And in kellys instance, there is zero evidence she ever brought clients back to her place. and with Blotchy she was hanging out with him, singing, drinking letting him stay in her place? IMHO it seems blotchy was someone she knew and was very comfortable with. he may have given her money or not that night but direct wam bam thank you mam prostitution act that night dosnt fit the evidence.

Hi Abby,

Yes, I absolutely agree. In my opinion Blotchy was not a client, for the reasons that you give, most likely a friend or acquaintance. And that's assuming Cox was a reliable witness, which she may not have been

I also agree with you about Stride. Although she was registered as a prostitute in her native Sweden, there's zero evidence that she ever solicited in the UK.

Inferences are sometimes drawn because she may have been sighted with a number of men by different witnesses-Marshall, Packer, Brown, PC Smith, Scwartz. However, extreme caution is required: some of these may have been false sightings, i.e. because there was a young couple wandering around the neighbourhood at the relevant time, who Mortimer spoke to.

Some of the witnesses may have been unreliable: Packer, Scwartz (although I realise we disagree on the latter!)

And didn't Eagle state that the neighbourhood, or at least Dutfield's Yard, didn't have a reputation for soliciting?

[/QUOTE]

or the men all seen with stride that night where the same man-peaked cap man. seen by marshall, Schwartz, smith.(perhaps brown and packer) any way its not really classic prostitute/client behavior is it? meandering about, chit chatting, spending alot of time with etc?

[John G]

Barnett didn't tell a newspaper, he told Abberline in his police statement.

That he left her last Tuesday week....."when in consequence of not earning sufficient money to give her and her resorting to prostitution, I resolved on leaving her."

I have to wonder what it would take for some people to just accept she was a prostitute! It's all she had ever done.

She may have been a casual prostitute in the past, but it doesn't mean it was her dream job! In fact, Paul Begg argues in The Facts that whilst abroad, she may well have been forced into the life by a procurer, and detained as a virtual slave.

Then we have the testimony of Marie Harvey: "She told me, too, that she was heartily sick of the life she was leading and wished she had money enough to go back to Ireland where her people lived. I don't believe she would have gone out as she did if she had not been obliged to do so to keep herself from starvation."

There's also zero proof that she was soliciting on the night she was murdered. The only indication we have is from two witnesses: Hutchinson (a very questionable witness in my opinion), and Cox. However, as Abby points out Blotchy may been someone known to Kelly. And that's assuming he existed. I mean, the police don't seem to have focussed their subsequent investigations on blotchy-faced suspects (I mean, were, say, Druitt or Kosminski of blotchy complexion?) Moreover, Cox was never utilized for purposes of suspect identification.

Cox also claimed Kelly was extremely drunk, even though the police could find no publican who remembered serving her with drink.

And it's worth remembering that pilar of the community Caroline Maxwell also claimed to have known Kelly, and to have seen her in broad daylight at 8:30 in the morning; but not many people give this account much credence.

Frankly, little is what it seems in this saga.

[John G]

I totally agree, Abby. These women were not casual prostitutes because it was some sort of lifestyle choice, or vocation; it was something they did out of desperation, i.e. to avoid being thrown out onto the streets. In fact, do We even know for certain that Kelly was still involved in prostitution? I believe Barnett told a newspaper she was, but then gave a different account at the inquest?

hi john
IMHO it dosnt seem mary Kelly (or stride for that matter) was actively engaged in prostitution, especially on the nights of there death. I mean what person engaged in prostitution is going to hang out with a client for so long? And in kellys instance, there is zero evidence she ever brought clients back to her place. and with Blotchy she was hanging out with him, singing, drinking letting him stay in her place? IMHO it seems blotchy was someone she knew and was very comfortable with. he may have given her money or not that night but direct wam bam thank you mam prostitution act that night dosnt fit the evidence.[/QUOTE]

Hi Abby,

Yes, I absolutely agree. In my opinion Blotchy was not a client, for the reasons that you give, most likely a friend or acquaintance. And that's assuming Cox was a reliable witness, which she may not have been

I also agree with you about Stride. Although she was registered as a prostitute in her native Sweden, there's zero evidence that she ever solicited in the UK.

Inferences are sometimes drawn because she may have been sighted with a number of men by different witnesses-Marshall, Packer, Brown, PC Smith, Scwartz. However, extreme caution is required: some of these may have been false sightings, i.e. because there was a young couple wandering around the neighbourhood at the relevant time, who Mortimer spoke to.

Some of the witnesses may have been unreliable: Packer, Scwartz (although I realise we disagree on the latter!)

And didn't Eagle state that the neighbourhood, or at least Dutfield's Yard, didn't have a reputation for soliciting?

[Wickerman]

"Although no evidence was produced at the inquest as to her having left her room after one o'clock,"

LOL!

Yes, and it's a justifiable criticism of Macdonald, and how narrow he conducted the inquest.

[Wickerman]

I totally agree, Abby. These women were not casual prostitutes because it was some sort of lifestyle choice, or vocation; it was something they did out of desperation, i.e. to avoid being thrown out onto the streets. In fact, do We even know for certain that Kelly was still involved in prostitution? I believe Barnett told a newspaper she was, but then gave a different account at the inquest?

Barnett didn't tell a newspaper, he told Abberline in his police statement.

That he left her last Tuesday week....."when in consequence of not earning sufficient money to give her and her resorting to prostitution, I resolved on leaving her."

I have to wonder what it would take for some people to just accept she was a prostitute! It's all she had ever done.

[Wickerman]

oops! I just saw something on the other forum!-aussie George ruled out?

Don't ya hate "I told you so's"

[richardnunweek]

Hi
Toppy is flavour of the month Yippee.
Regards Richard.

[Abby Normal]

"

"Although no evidence was produced at the inquest as to her having left her room after one o'clock,"

LOL!

I totally agree, Abby. These women were not casual prostitutes because it was some sort of lifestyle choice, or vocation; it was something they did out of desperation, i.e. to avoid being thrown out onto the streets. In fact, do We even know for certain that Kelly was still involved in prostitution? I believe Barnett told a newspaper she was, but then gave a different account at the inquest?[/QUOTE]

hi john
IMHO it dosnt seem mary Kelly (or stride for that matter) was actively engaged in prostitution, especially on the nights of there death. I mean what person engaged in prostitution is going to hang out with a client for so long? And in kellys instance, there is zero evidence she ever brought clients back to her place. and with Blotchy she was hanging out with him, singing, drinking letting him stay in her place? IMHO it seems blotchy was someone she knew and was very comfortable with. he may have given her money or not that night but direct wam bam thank you mam prostitution act that night dosnt fit the evidence.

[John G]

hi Wick! what took you so long!

"Do you think hookers settle for one client a night?"

they might, especially, if they've already gotten money from a client/friend (blotchy), theyre drunk, have had something to eat already, a roof over there head and want to get up to go to the show in the morning!

"We don't know if there was a fire while she was alive, unless we imagine her burning her own clothes?"

we don't need to imagine her burning her own clothes to be enjoying a fire when she was alive. fire could have been lit already and the killer threw her clothes on the fire later.

"Does that mean "several persons in Millers Court", are not credible?"

"Although no evidence was produced at the inquest as to her having left her room after one o'clock, at which time she was heard singing, the police have obtained statements from several persons who reside in Millers Court, that she was out of her house and in Dorset street between two and three o'clock. It appears almost certain that her life was taken about the last named hour.

Morning Advertiser, 14 Nov. 1888.

"

"Although no evidence was produced at the inquest as to her having left her room after one o'clock,"

LOL!

[/QUOTE]

I totally agree, Abby. These women were not casual prostitutes because it was some sort of lifestyle choice, or vocation; it was something they did out of desperation, i.e. to avoid being thrown out onto the streets. In fact, do We even know for certain that Kelly was still involved in prostitution? I believe Barnett told a newspaper she was, but then gave a different account at the inquest?

[Roy Corduroy]

V3 it is, then

Your wish is my command, kind Sam. V3 is under construction as we speak. In the meantime, Ver 2 Hutch's Man has already registered A vote.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Mr A: I insist the photo shows a human breast sliced off and placed on the table

Mr B: No, No, a thousand times No, that is a Mrs. Keyler's Self Rising Biscuit@

[Abby Normal]

No it didn't, and I am being objective. Toppy and Witness both consistently had a long crossbar on the "t" which touched, if not bisected, the stem of the lower-case "h" - Aussie George never does this. Toppy and Witness both consistently displaced the dots on their "i"s way off to the right - Aussie George's dots his "is" in line with the stem. Toppy and Witness consistently wrote their "G" with the lower loop extending below the line of the signature - Aussie George's "G"s were written entirely above the line, lower loop and all. The only difference - the only one - between Toppy and Witness is the use of one flowery "H" on one page of the witness statement, and even Witness doesn't use the same capital "H" again on the next two pages... whose capital "H"s match those of Toppy, too.

Academic now, because - as you've discovered - Stephen Senise's diligence has shown that Aussie George wasn't in the country during the Autumn of Terror.

got it sam thanks.
and yes, toppy is back on top as probably most likely we have of being the witness hutch. : )

[Sam Flynn]

But the simple fact is that looked at objectively Aussie George’s sig matches witness hutch way more that toppys.

No it didn't, and I am being objective. Toppy and Witness both consistently had a long crossbar on the "t" which touched, if not bisected, the stem of the lower-case "h" - Aussie George never does this. Toppy and Witness both consistently displaced the dots on their "i"s way off to the right - Aussie George's dots his "is" in line with the stem. Toppy and Witness consistently wrote their "G" with the lower loop extending below the line of the signature - Aussie George's "G"s were written entirely above the line, lower loop and all. The only difference - the only one - between Toppy and Witness is the use of one flowery "H" on one page of the witness statement, and even Witness doesn't use the same capital "H" again on the next two pages... whose capital "H"s match those of Toppy, too.

Academic now, because - as you've discovered - Stephen Senise's diligence has shown that Aussie George wasn't in the country during the Autumn of Terror.

[Abby Normal]

Yes...tracked down by Stephen (via crew lists) and away "en voyage" from late July 1888 to April 1889...

Thanks cog
Just read the whole thread on the other forum.wow! Stephen researched his own man out of dodge! kudos to him though.

yes, Toppy Lives! lol

[Cogidubnus]

Yes...tracked down by Stephen (via crew lists) and away "en voyage" from late July 1888 to April 1889...