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  • #16
    George Hutchinson may be the most significant witness. Mary Kelly was the last ripper victim. If Hutchinson is to be believed he may have seen the ripper. So, his discription of the man he saw with Mary is very important. Something happened after the Kelly murder to make the ripper stop killing. Did Hutchinson's description bring unwanted police attention to him, causing him to leave the area?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by celee View Post
      George Hutchinson may be the most significant witness. Mary Kelly was the last ripper victim. If Hutchinson is to be believed he may have seen the ripper. So, his discription of the man he saw with Mary is very important. Something happened after the Kelly murder to make the ripper stop killing. Did Hutchinson's description bring unwanted police attention to him, causing him to leave the area?
      Did you have to necro a thread that's over 10 years old?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by celee View Post
        George Hutchinson may be the most significant witness. Mary Kelly was the last ripper victim. If Hutchinson is to be believed he may have seen the ripper. So, his discription of the man he saw with Mary is very important. Something happened after the Kelly murder to make the ripper stop killing. Did Hutchinson's description bring unwanted police attention to him, causing him to leave the area?
        Hi celee
        if hutch was being truthful then yes Astracan man was most surely the ripper. however, I think he was probably fictional.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • #19
          Hi, Abby Normal. You wouldn't be a Mel Brooks fan by any chance? I think the police knew who the ripper was, but they could not agree on a suspect. In my opinion the ripper was either John Druitt, George Chapman, Aaron Kosminski, or Francis Tumblety. Those men were suspects at the time. I know Kosminski is getting all the love right now from the media, but I have always felt that something happened to the killer shortly after the Kelly murder. The idea that Kosminski walked the streets for years after the Kelly murder without getting into any trouble befor he was locked away feels strange to me. I know some feel that Hutchinson's description is to detailed, and do not believe him, but why would he lie, and if he was going to lie, why invent such an outrageous character? It has been my experience that police detectives are very smart, and given a chance to solve a case they usually do. The four men I mention are the preferred suspect at the time of the killings.

          Hi Harry, I apologize for coming back to this old thread, but I have not posted in a while, and I feel the events during the Kelly murder, and shortly after are the key to making sense of this mystery.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

            Hi celee
            if hutch was being truthful then yes Astracan man was most surely the ripper. however, I think he was probably fictional.
            Hi Abby,

            Considering the other thread, do you think it plausible that Astrachan man could feasibly have been Druitt? I'm not saying I think Druitt was JtR, I don't. However, it seems to me that he's one of the few major suspects who could conceivably been AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by celee View Post
              Hi, Abby Normal. You wouldn't be a Mel Brooks fan by any chance? I think the police knew who the ripper was, but they could not agree on a suspect. In my opinion the ripper was either John Druitt, George Chapman, Aaron Kosminski, or Francis Tumblety. Those men were suspects at the time. I know Kosminski is getting all the love right now from the media, but I have always felt that something happened to the killer shortly after the Kelly murder. The idea that Kosminski walked the streets for years after the Kelly murder without getting into any trouble befor he was locked away feels strange to me. I know some feel that Hutchinson's description is to detailed, and do not believe him, but why would he lie, and if he was going to lie, why invent such an outrageous character? It has been my experience that police detectives are very smart, and given a chance to solve a case they usually do. The four men I mention are the preferred suspect at the time of the killings.

              Hi Harry, I apologize for coming back to this old thread, but I have not posted in a while, and I feel the events during the Kelly murder, and shortly after are the key to making sense of this mystery.
              hi c
              yes-you got it from Young Frankensteen! lol I think all four of those police suspects are viable but favor in order out of those-chapman, koz, druitt, T.

              I also think that kelly is the key to the mystery as she seems to have been killed by someone she knows. witnesses describe her being with four men that night-Barnett, blotchy, hutch and Aman. throw in Bowyer as well for good measure. I think theres a good chance her killer is among these men.

              However, probably not Aman as IMHO he was fictional made up by hutch. Why would hutch lie? fifteen minutes of fame if he wasn't her killer. to deflect police if he was. The thought that he was lurking around, and engaged in stalking behavior with Kelly just gives me the willies. I know not very scientific but there you have it. and he wouldn't be the first killer to fool police.

              Now that all that being said in general, In my top teir of favored suspects I have: hutch, blotchy, bury, chapman, Koz and Kelly
              second tier: Barnett, Lechmere, druitt, Richardson, bowyer, Dr T, Oswald puckridge, legrange,
              third tier: everyone else
              no tier (aka crackpot): royal conspiracy, maybrick, van gogh, police conspiracy, club conspiracy, sickert etc



              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by John G View Post

                Hi Abby,

                Considering the other thread, do you think it plausible that Astrachan man could feasibly have been Druitt? I'm not saying I think Druitt was JtR, I don't. However, it seems to me that he's one of the few major suspects who could conceivably been AM.
                hi john
                Absolutely-although I think IF (BIG IF) aman was real I would go more with he was the bethnal green botherer who still could be druitt I suppose.
                or possibly Koz. not chapman (eventhough the description is very similar) because of accent.

                Druitt, though viable, just dosnt seem right to me as the ripper. first of all because of location/geoprofile, but also he dosnt really fit the short stout description, and personally druitt sounds like a very sensitive intelligent diligent type. and serial killers rarely if ever commit suicide and only seem to do so when capture is inevitable.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by celee View Post
                  George Hutchinson may be the most significant witness. Mary Kelly was the last ripper victim. If Hutchinson is to be believed he may have seen the ripper. So, his discription of the man he saw with Mary is very important. Something happened after the Kelly murder to make the ripper stop killing. Did Hutchinson's description bring unwanted police attention to him, causing him to leave the area?
                  Hi Celee.

                  I certainly believe Hutchinson. I tend to believe all witnesses, unless we have a contrary story from someone else.
                  - Why would he lie?
                  - Why would he make himself the last person to see her alive?,
                  - Why would he place himself at the murder scene within the hour of her death?
                  - Why invent a suspect so different from every other suspect?
                  None of it make any sense, unless everything he said was true. There's a reason for the saying that truth is stranger than fiction.

                  When someone intentionally lies to police they usually make some effort to offer a reasonable suspect.

                  All that said, I doubt the man he saw had anything to do with her murder.

                  Hutchinson's story roughly plays out between 2:00 & 3:00 am. give or take any inaccuracies in the clocks referred to.
                  Yet, one witness a Mrs Kennedy claimed to see Mary Kelly outside the Britannia "about 3:00", she was standing close to a strange man who accosted Lewis & Kennedy the previous Wednesday evening.
                  So, if this sighting is true, I'm more inclined to think this stranger is the last man she took home that night - and he was the Ripper.
                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                    Hi Celee.

                    I certainly believe Hutchinson. I tend to believe all witnesses, unless we have a contrary story from someone else.
                    - Why would he lie?
                    - Why would he make himself the last person to see her alive?,
                    - Why would he place himself at the murder scene within the hour of her death?
                    - Why invent a suspect so different from every other suspect?
                    None of it make any sense, unless everything he said was true. There's a reason for the saying that truth is stranger than fiction.

                    When someone intentionally lies to police they usually make some effort to offer a reasonable suspect.

                    All that said, I doubt the man he saw had anything to do with her murder.

                    Hutchinson's story roughly plays out between 2:00 & 3:00 am. give or take any inaccuracies in the clocks referred to.
                    Yet, one witness a Mrs Kennedy claimed to see Mary Kelly outside the Britannia "about 3:00", she was standing close to a strange man who accosted Lewis & Kennedy the previous Wednesday evening.
                    So, if this sighting is true, I'm more inclined to think this stranger is the last man she took home that night - and he was the Ripper.
                    AKA the Bethnal Green Botherer.
                    so in this scenario-hutch leaves at 3:00, Aman leaves shortly after and mary heads out again and runs in the BGB, the ripper.


                    or the BGB was Aman, and lewis is off slightly on her sequence of events.
                    Last edited by Abby Normal; 05-23-2019, 08:44 PM.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hello Celee

                      There was no "Mrs Kennedy", or if there was she was a liar. Her story of what she saw and did on the night of Kelly's death is so close to Sarah Lewis's that she can't possibly be another witness. She was either Lewis using another name; the result of a newspaper error; a product of distorted street gossip; or a chancer who passed off Lewis's story as her own.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        Hello Celee

                        There was no "Mrs Kennedy", or if there was she was a liar. Her story of what she saw and did on the night of Kelly's death is so close to Sarah Lewis's that she can't possibly be another witness. She was either Lewis using another name; the result of a newspaper error; a product of distorted street gossip; or a chancer who passed off Lewis's story as her own.
                        and I pretty much agree with this, but leaving the slight chance that kennedy is legit. very slight.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                          ...
                          Hutchinson's story roughly plays out between 2:00 & 3:00 am. give or take any inaccuracies in the clocks referred to.
                          Yet, one witness a Mrs Kennedy claimed to see Mary Kelly outside the Britannia "about 3:00", she was standing close to a strange man who accosted Lewis & Kennedy the previous Wednesday evening.
                          So, if this sighting is true, I'm more inclined to think this stranger is the last man she took home that night - and he was the Ripper.
                          Hi Wickerman,

                          You know, if that sighting is true, and after leaving "astrakan man" and going to the Britannia, now with some money presumably, that could explain when and where she had her meal of fish and potatoes.

                          - Jeff

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                            Hello Celee

                            There was no "Mrs Kennedy", or if there was she was a liar. Her story of what she saw and did on the night of Kelly's death is so close to Sarah Lewis's that she can't possibly be another witness. She was either Lewis using another name; the result of a newspaper error; a product of distorted street gossip; or a chancer who passed off Lewis's story as her own.
                            See, here we go again. You rewriting the record by imposing your interpretation on the statement of a witness does not change the written record.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                              Hi Wickerman,

                              You know, if that sighting is true, and after leaving "astrakan man" and going to the Britannia, now with some money presumably, that could explain when and where she had her meal of fish and potatoes.

                              - Jeff
                              Yes, if we put our personal bias aside (re: previous post) and just deal with the record as it has come down to us the picture can become clearer, alternatives do surface.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                                AKA the Bethnal Green Botherer.
                                so in this scenario-hutch leaves at 3:00, Aman leaves shortly after and mary heads out again and runs in the BGB, the ripper.
                                Thats how I see it Abby. Which leaves us with a genuine suspect who demonstrably has presented himself as a creep who tries to lure women into dark alley's secured by wooden gates. A feature of several murders; those of Nichols, Stride & Eddowes (yes, there was a gate in the corner by the body).


                                or the BGB was Aman, and lewis is off slightly on her sequence of events.
                                The physical description between BGB & Aman is different though. Plus, that would entail Kelly & Aman leaving Millers Court to stand at the corner of Dorset street, only to return to her room again.

                                Regards, Jon S.

                                Comment

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