Hutch's Man

[Michael W Richards]

Ok Jon, Ill address them in your quote;

Not at all Michael, if no-one saw her out after 1:00am. then what you say would be justified. However, people did see her out on the street with another man, so your point lacks jutification.

To be seen out we should first have some evidence that she ever left the room, yes? Do we? No. we only have her entering the room, singing off an on for over an hour while drunk, then the room goes quiet and dark. For Blotchy we can presume that he left the room at some point, he is not there when Bowyer looks in. So he left. When..is a really good question.


Nothing compelling there Michael.
There can be three reason's why her room is dark & quiet. Kelly is either dead already, sleeping, or out on the street.
What evidence do we have that she was dead? - none! There is no medical testimony that has the TOD near 1am.
What evidence do we have that she was sleeping? - none! I never said she need to be asleep at 1:30, just that she had bedded down for the night.
What evidence do we have that she was out on the street? - several people saw her! Several people we don't know even knew Mary Kelly, and one witness is chastised at the Inquest for bring what seems to be a frivolous account.
No prizes for guessing which is the more compelling argument. Maybe there should be.

You've never read about the life of the destitute in the East End have you Michael. Laundresses, Matchmakers, Brushmakers, all earning 4-6 shillings per week on 11-12 hour days. To supplement their meagre income many turned to casual prostitution.
How much per week was Stride earning as a part-time cleaner, a few pence a day perhaps?

That's both insulting and inaccurate Jon, Ive read what appears to be far more than the average bear on peripheral matters such as the life of Unfortunates, the surgical standards of the day, immigration, burials, anything that has bearing on the ever increasing materials Ive read on the subject itself. Plus I understand life from both the bottom and the top, and have an understanding of what it is to be human in both scenarios. How dignity and pride can mean more than a hot meal and warm bed at times. Liz Stride demonstrated her will to have her name not be associated with streetwalkers, she had run a coffee shop, she had been a nanny and housekeeper. She was employed as a charwoman at the time of her death, and she had been paid for cleaning rooms that afternoon. We don't know where that money went, but I suspect some is pinned on her jacket and some is in her hands when she dies. It didn't go to drink. Mary on the other hand is seemingly a lifer streetwalker.

They both needed money. What other reason is required?Did they? Neither needed doss money for that night, and neither could buy food or booze at the time of their death. Mary was already in arrears almost 3 weeks, McCarthy must have just about given up any hope of having that cleared up soon. "See if you can collect "some rent" was Bowyers mission. And Liz must have had plans. She felt she would not be returning to her regular digs that night, but by leaving the fabric swatch, she indicates she will be again soon. So in fact Jon, the absolute opposite of your statement is the truth.

[Sam Flynn]

To be seen out we should first have some evidence that she ever left the room, yes?

Not necessarily. She could easily have slipped out at any time without anyone noticing. After all, Mr Blotchy did precisely that, whether he was the killer or not. Indeed, we only know that Kelly and Blotchy arrived together because Cox fortuitously happened to be in the right place at the right time.

That Kelly wasn't seen leaving is neither here nor there.

[Michael W Richards]

Not necessarily. She could easily have slipped out at any time without anyone noticing. After all, Mr Blotchy did precisely that, whether he was the killer or not. Indeed, we only know that Kelly and Blotchy arrived together because Cox fortuitously happened to be in the right place at the right time.

That Kelly wasn't seen leaving is neither here nor there.

It is when you consider that 2 witnesses were privy to the state of Marys room at 1:30, and one again later before 3am. Neither saw or heard anything, despite the fact that one of the witnesses was in the only exit route just before the room went dark and silent. The fact that the witnesses in the courtyard were dormant by 3am indicates that Blotchy may well have left when no-one could have possibly seen him, maybe after 3am.

[Sam Flynn]

It is when you consider that 2 witnesses were privy to the state of Marys room at 1:30, and one again later before 3am.

But they didn't have it under surveillance during those times. Who's going to notice the click of a door and a handful of footfalls at, say, 2:15AM? It's not even as if Mary would have had to cross the courtyard either - her door practically opened into the entrance passage, and she could have been out of sight within seconds of leaving her room. Unless Cox was still hanging around, or Lewis was looking out of the Keylers' window directly at Mary's door, they weren't likely to notice anything.

[John G]

You're comment would have meaning if no-one had said anything about her being a prostitute. Yet there is plenty of opinion, and every witness is "questionable", in your opinion.

How about you taking a turn, tell this forum what evidence there is to show Kelly was not a prostitute.

Mary Kelly's Death Certificate.
Column 5, Occupation - Prostitute.


How's that for hearsay!

Well, on the Torso thread Gary and Debra have done some excellent research, showing that job descriptions of the period, shown on census records, were not always accurate: apparently, a 67 year old lady's occupation is listed as horse knackerer!

Anyway, there's obviously a difference between full-time prostitute, and casual prostitute, something that is turned to out of desperation.

[Sam Flynn]

Well, on the Torso thread Gary and Debra have done some excellent research, showing that job descriptions of the period, shown on census records, were not always accurate: apparently, a 67 year old lady's occupation is listed as horse knackerer!

To be fair, that particular census entry gives "Horse Flesh Vendor" as her occupation in large handwriting, with the word "knacker" added in superscript - probably meaning that she was a "Horse (Knacker's) Meat Dealer", rather than being a chopper-upper herself. There are other census entries which follow the same pattern.

[Wickerman]

Ok Jon, Ill address them in your quote;

When you do that Michael, there's nothing for anyone to reply to. As you see above, all we have is an empty box.
You need to separate each sentence or paragraph you are responding to.

[Michael W Richards]

But they didn't have it under surveillance during those times. Who's going to notice the click of a door and a handful of footfalls at, say, 2:15AM? It's not even as if Mary would have had to cross the courtyard either - her door practically opened into the entrance passage, and she could have been out of sight within seconds of leaving her room. Unless Cox was still hanging around, or Lewis was looking out of the Keylers' window directly at Mary's door, they weren't likely to notice anything.

Cox was out on the street until almost 3...do we know where she stood during that time? Might she have had a view of the courtyard entrance from that point? Absolutely. Not saying that's the way it was, just that its very possible. The point Im making is that we know Blotchy left, he wasnt there the next morning...we do not know Mary did, she was found where she was seen entering at 11:45am.

[Michael W Richards]

But they didn't have it under surveillance during those times. Who's going to notice the click of a door and a handful of footfalls at, say, 2:15AM? It's not even as if Mary would have had to cross the courtyard either - her door practically opened into the entrance passage, and she could have been out of sight within seconds of leaving her room. Unless Cox was still hanging around, or Lewis was looking out of the Keylers' window directly at Mary's door, they weren't likely to notice anything.

Mary Ann Cox heard footfalls throughout that night Sam, some as late as around 6am. We also have the courtyard "oh-murder" heard around 3:45. To say that Mary left and the witnesses heard nothing presumes that any sounds of her leaving just happened to be missed by witnesses that stated they heard much of the bootsteps and voices in that courtyard. Why would they just miss the sound of Mary closing her door and trodding out to the street?

Some people are nosy. I suspect Elizabeth is one of those, maybe Mary Ann too.

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry, Michael, but it is simply not the case that either Cox or Lewis or anyone else would definitely have heard Mary slip out, because (apart from Hutch!) no-one had her room under surveillance for any length of time.

And, whether they were nosey or not, nobody - but nobody - heard Blotchy leave.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry, Michael, but it is simply not the case that either Cox or Lewis or anyone else would definitely have heard Mary slip out, because (apart from Hutch!) no-one had her room under surveillance for any length of time.

And, whether they were nosey or not, nobody - but nobody - heard Blotchy leave.

unless it was him leaving at about 5:30 in the morning that the witness heard the footsteps(forgot who it was).

[Michael W Richards]

Sorry, Michael, but it is simply not the case that either Cox or Lewis or anyone else would definitely have heard Mary slip out, because (apart from Hutch!) no-one had her room under surveillance for any length of time.

And, whether they were nosey or not, nobody - but nobody - heard Blotchy leave.

So Elizabeth could hear courtyard sounds in the middle of the night and sounds from Marys room when she moved about in it, and Sarah could hear a voice "as if at her door" in the middle of the night, and Mary Ann heard people coming and going in that courtyard until near 6am, and both Elizabeth and Mary Ann were outdoors, Elizabeth in the passageway, when Marys lights go out and her room is quiet...yet none of them would, or could, hear, or see, Mary slip out? Sam....of course they could have, its just a matter of record that they didn't. Which of course means its possible she never did leave that room.

And if Blotchy leaves late that morning, no-one is awake to hear that anyway. We are talking about witnesses that have established they heard sounds and were awake at the time.

[Sam Flynn]

So Elizabeth could hear courtyard sounds in the middle of the night

She was talking about cries/screams, not the clicking shut of a door.

and sounds from Marys room when she moved about in it

Not quite - read her testimony. Prater was talking about what she might have heard through the partition as she ascended the stairs, not while she was all snuggled up with Diddles in her room... the front room over the shed, of course.

And if Blotchy leaves late that morning, no-one is awake to hear that anyway. We are talking about witnesses that have established they heard sounds and were awake at the time.

Awake is one thing, attentive is quite another. Nobody had Mary's room under active surveillance, and she could easily have slipped out unnoticed at any time.

[Wickerman]

Cox was out on the street until almost 3...do we know where she stood during that time? Might she have had a view of the courtyard entrance from that point? Absolutely. Not saying that's the way it was, just that its very possible. The point Im making is that we know Blotchy left, he wasnt there the next morning...we do not know Mary did, she was found where she was seen entering at 11:45am.

You try to make it sound like no-one saw her out after 1:00, yet three (some say two), people say they saw her.
You're promoting a deceptive argument Michael. Whether you choose to trust the word of these people is irrelevant, because you know nothing about them.

[Wickerman]

unless it was him leaving at about 5:30 in the morning that the witness heard the footsteps(forgot who it was).

Prater says she was up and out in the court at 5:30am.