Maxwell

[richardnunweek]

Hello Mike,
Correct, but the trouble is nobody else agrees, except a handful of us.
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

Richard,

I think Maxwell is credible because no one really knew when Kelly died. Bond was decent, but his times don't match modern forensics very well. As for, "Oh murder.", well we know that it was a common enough thing and witnesses even said so. Could Maxwell have been wrong? Of course, but she may have been right too.

Mike

[richardnunweek]

Hello Mike,
Prater even [ as you know[ described the 'Oh Murder' as if awakening from a nightmare, which again [ as you proberly know] was confimed in a conversation with Kit Watkins three years after, it was described by Prater, as precisely what Lottie informed Kit. ie.. 'Mary informed me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and she was infact the next to go,
Therefore it can be assumed, that this dream of kellys took place during october, and was proberly before the 30th, when Barnett walked out, as his apparent reading of the 'gory bits 'of the newspapers, and his warning to her to act respectably, may well have enticed an reoccurence of that dream, which gave the utterance of 'Oh Murder', which would be 'apt' for the cry heard.
I feel that as, there is an plausible explanation for the cry, as given by Mrs Prater at the inquest [ along with her ''interpretation,'' which she endeavoued to describe] we should not take the cry at 4am as an indication when Kelly met her demise.
Again my thoughts are in the minority.
Regards Richard.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Richard,

The minority rules ok! (but not in the Minories, nor down the mines, explosions and all...)

The trouble is that one of the enduring myths of all of this is that the time of Kelly's demise was never officially ascertained, as it was not presented at the right time in the right place...namely at the inquest, which closed prematurely without this crucial piece of information.

Although there are many a thread and comment upon this point, I feel that it cannot be overstated enough. Because of it, the "nightstalking murderer" who killed Kelly in the small hours always pop up in the "fact" column.
Maxwell is an important witness and spoke up. She went against the grain and trend, stuck by her guns under pressure and said she stated catagorically that she saw Kelly more than once that morning.

All this is much to the consternation of many at the time and many since. It blows holes in all sorts of ideas and theories. As we both know some people will hold on to their pet ideas like bally hoo and go to great lengths to discredit any witness or witness statement that doesn't "fit".

Looking at it this another way....if Maxwell told the truth, then the police themselves are in the spotlight as they DIDN'T believe her at all, and tried to discredit her. They placed their apparent bets very clearly. The police? Make such an faux pas? Heaven forbid! That's when people shout "conspiracy theorist" at one. Witnesses discredited? Yup..but the police? Never!
It therefore doesn't take more than a whiff of common sense to put this lady's statement into context.

There are "myths" and then there are "myths" about JTR. As long as the "believe what we are told to believe" boat isn't rocked, the myth is accepted.. "someone must have been mistaken", "someone didn't have a watch", "watches weren't that common in that area at the time", someone had poor eyesight from "such a distance", "wrong day" "still had the horrors of drink upon her and that must have affected her memory/eyesight/timing", etc etc ad nauseum.

Yup..there are myths, and then there are myths. One of them is that the police were untouchable in their approach to all of this. I am reminded of Winston Churchill. Fairy stories, or such like.

Hope you are well Richard.

best wishes

Phil

[richardnunweek]

Hi Phil,
Trust you are well also.
I absolutely agree, many ripperologists tend to drop any mention of Maxwell has having any relevence in the kelly murder, she is the Valerie Storie[ A6] of 'Ripperland', wrong, wrong , mistaken...
Caroline Maxwell by all accounts was a level headed, respectable lady, who not only was interviewed by Abberline himself, but swore under oath at the inquest, dispite the coroners insistance that her evidence was alien to the medical reports.
Mistaken..she knew of Barnett, she knew Kelly by name.
Wrong day.. even the anti Maxwells accept that unlikely.
So what is the explanation?
Was she lying.?
What ever for?
That leaves us with the obvious.. Mjk was killed after the last sighting by Maxwell, and its that simple, so who was the middle aged man [ dressed in plaid] that was the last person [ allegedly] seen with Mary Kelly..
Was he her killer? has to be suspect number one.
Regards Richard.

[Sally]

the "nightstalking murderer" who killed Kelly in the small hours always pop up in the "fact" column.

Annie Millwood was apparently attacked in the afternoon, as she was admitted to Whitechapel Infirmary at 5pm, I think. Perhaps the time of day or night mattered less than the opportuinity. Most prostitutes are out at night. But not all.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Sally,

I was referring to the canonical five grouping that JTR is alledgedly most likely responsible for.

best wishes

Phil

[waterloo]

getting back to Maxwell. I think she made up the story of seeing MJK. She has had to come up with some smoke screen very fast. Perhaps she was trying to protect somebody by cnfusing the times. In other words give someone an alibi. I dont know exacly how that would fir into things but that is the only reason I can see for Maxwell making the story up. Yes it could be many of the other combinations but perhaps we should look more carefully at Maxwell and her relationships to bottom this out. Just a thought. I still remain new to all of this.
Regards

[Jon Guy]

Hi Phil

I was referring to the canonical five grouping that JTR is alledgedly most likely responsible for.

Annie Chapman ?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jon,

Yes, Pre 06.00a.m. is "night/early hours of the morning"as opposed to afternoon and daytime.


best wishes

Phil

[miss marple]

At the inquest Maxwell seems to be describing a different woman from Mary Kelly.
She says'' She believed she was an unfortunate who never associated with anyone''
Now in the four months Maxwell ''knew her'' Kelly was living with Joe and not working as an 'unfortunate' She had also had Maria Harvey to stay with her. She did not return to the streets until a few days before she died. She was not a loner who never associated with anyone but was living with a man and had her female friends and was a regular in the pubs. The clothes she descibes Mary wearing are not the same as the clothes descibed by Mary Ann Cox.
There are too many anomilies.
Miss Marple

[Abby Normal]

At the inquest Maxwell seems to be describing a different woman from Mary Kelly.
She says'' She believed she was an unfortunate who never associated with anyone''
Now in the four months Maxwell ''knew her'' Kelly was living with Joe and not working as an 'unfortunate' She had also had Maria Harvey to stay with her. She did not return to the streets until a few days before she died. She was not a loner who never associated with anyone but was living with a man and had her female friends and was a regular in the pubs. The clothes she descibes Mary wearing are not the same as the clothes descibed by Mary Ann Cox.
There are too many anomilies.
Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple
I beleive maxwell had the right day but the wrong "Mary Kelly" also.

Also, as i have stated previously, that the burnt clothes in her fire place in which there was a large (and presumably long burning) fire indicates the murder must have taken place long before 9:00 am (not to mention the drs TOD).

Another point that struck me. If Maxwell saw the right MK who had "Horrors of drink upon her" and just vomited on the side walk would she really be in any mood/capacity to have sex, i.e be solicitating and bringing a client to her room so soon after? I think not.

I also think the eviscerated state she was discovered in was done over a long period of time (at least a couple of hours which would correspond to a large, hot, long burning fire)-longer than the time between Maxwell's sighting and the discovery of the body by Boyer.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
In Maxwell, we have a witness that was adamant, not only to the police , but also at the inquest, also the press.. that she saw , and spoke to the victim
Most of her information was recorded on the 9th, [ excluding the inquest], the theory that she either was mistaken on the date, or the millers court victim, is unlikely if one takes the time-line .
I would suggest that he middle aged man that Maxwell saw kelly with, would be a prime suspect for her killer, but that leads us still baffled , as who knows?
Regards Richard.

[The Good Michael]

Maxwell rode in one of the hearses to Kelly's funeral (if I'm not mistaken). That might mean that she knew Kelly, mightn't it?

Mike

[miss marple]

The fact that Maxwell went to the funeral does not prove she knew Kelly. All the women who gave evidence at the inquest went to the funeral.It was a big event with hundreds of onlookers. The witnesses had their 15 minutes of fame.
Maxwell had known a woman for four months had she had said hello too maybe twice. The woman was short, and dark and a prostitute, a woman who was not living with anyone as she 'never associated with anyone' who was an' active' prostitute in the time Maxwell knew her. Mary Kelly had only gone back on the streets a few days before she was murdered, Maxwell would not have known that, she appeared not to know that Mary had been living with Joe.
Whether you believe Maxwell was talking to Kelly or not. The woman lying dead in the bed could not have been her. So anyone who believes Maxwell must think someone else was in the bed which begs the question who was it? and why was Mary Kelly never seen again.
The Britannia pub people did see Mary Kelly the morning Maxwell spoke to the woman, in spite of her standing outside and possibily going in with the strange man
Miss Marple