Maxwell

[sdreid]

My view would be Kelly was killed later rather than the victim wasn't her.

[Bob Hinton]

Still Wrong

But Richard you are overlooking one very important fact. Mrs Maxwell didn't know Mary Kelly, she had only met her to say 'Hello' to on, I believe, one previous occasion.

For you to be right Maxwell in that very brief meeting must have gleaned more information from Kelly that even Barnett who lived with her - I don't believe that he ever mentioned that she spoke with an impediment.

You are also overlooking the one fact that prevents her from being right. No-one, not in the street or in the bar where she had a drink, saw her that morning.

Was she wearing a cloak of invisibilty or what?

[richardnunweek]

Hello Bob,
According to what the Daily Mail reported, Maxwell had known Kelly for about six months, according to another report she had known her for about four months, and spoke to her a couple of times, and she had on occasions been around the 'Lodging house'.
She said at the inquest that she knew her by the name Mary Jane[ like all the other court residents] and she knew her as 'Carrie'.
The speech impediment is intresting, the only mention of a possibility is her ex landlady[ Mrs Buki?] mentioning a false tooth that pertruded from kellys lips.
But the Limerick mention I find intresting, of course she could have picked that up from hearsay, but also she could have heard it first hand from kelly,for lets not forget this press report was from the a interview just not long after the body was discovered.
One has the opinion, that Mary told many a associate about her previous life, so Maxwell may have been no exception.
As for the beer , whats to say that Blotchy [if he existed?] did not pour some of his ale into a cup/glass around midnight, and Kelly drank that as 'Hair of the dog' shortly before Maxwells alleged sighting.?
After all' I have had some beer, and brought it up again' does not refer to any Pub visit.
Regards Richard.

[jason_c]

Okay. But then she set up Barnett, McCarthy and whoever else may possibly have been pulled in to view the body to say that it was certainly her. She'd have had no control over who saw the body and, unless she was participant in ensuring the victim was unidentifiable, could not have been certain that someone could have said that it just wasn't her. That would then leave Barnett and a few others in a tricky situation--why, then, would he just hang around?

Nup, whatever the truth of the Maxwell scenario--that she was either mistaken, or the murder took place later in the day than we fancy--I'm afraid we have to accept the victim was the woman known as MJK.

An excellent point. This was a prostitute down on her luck, not Professor Moriarty.

[Bob Hinton]

Maxwell

According to her testimony:

I knew the deceased for about four months. I believe she was an unfortunate. On two occasions I spoke to her.

Speaking to someone twice in four months doesn't really lean towards them being best friends.

The biggest problem with Maxwell is, as I have already mentioned, in one of the busiest periods of what was to be a very busy day, no-one else saw her. Where are the people coming forward saying 'I saw MJK talking to Mrs Maxwell' or 'I saw her outside the Britannia' or just plain 'I saw her'.

[The Good Michael]

I'd have to agree with Bob's point re: no one else seeing Kelly that morning. Yet, forensics do indicate that the time of death could have happened at 9-ish if we take Bond's initial statement about the commencement of rigor mortis as being accurate. If Maxwell was fairly correct on her time assessment, and she had the right day in mind, what changes really? Or is this an opportunity to insert some nonsensical theory.

Mike

[Sally]

What about Maurice Lewis - didn't he see her? Or was that just a tale?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Mike,
We should not forget, Maurice Lewis, and the milk trip, also the elusive woman named as Mrs Goode, who initially confirmed a sighting in Dorset street of Kelly, but when the press went to locate her later in the day she could not be found.
We should also note that it was rumoured at the time, that the murder ocurred shortly before the body was found, and jealously was the motive, this was I would say, a suggestion that the dead woman was seen in the company of Barnett around 10am[ cannot be confirmed].
It is modern day medical opinion, that the murder based on Rigor mortis could have occured around 9am, so we cannot rule that out, especially with alleged sightings.
I would suggest that the police doctors made a educated guess about T.O.D, based on food digestion, and the cry of 'Oh Murder'.
But as I have remaked on several occasions/many, the 'cry' heard along with the opinion of Mrs Prater that it resembled a nightmare awakening, may have been just that, especially as Lottie.. resident in room 13 in 1892, informed Kit watkins[ canadian journalist] that Kelly had told her, she had a bad dream that she was being murdered.
Note the subject of that dream, and the cry of 'Oh Murder', which fits rather well I suggest.
So If Mary just awoke and cried out from a reoccurence of that dream[ which is not imposssible] that would not pinpoint a physical attack.
That leaves us with the food content scattered over her intestines, again I would suggest, that the aweful mutilation, and a wrong T.O.D, might lend weight to a error in judgement about when the food was consumed.
So we have.
Three witness sightings, albeit only one confirmed.
An explanation about the cry, confirmed by both Mrs Prater, and the woman Lottie[ some three years after].
Modern medical opinions on rigor mortis.
One of the witnesses Maxwell confirming her sighting under oath.
Against.
We have 1888 medical opinion , and its many limitations.
Regards Richard.

[miss marple]

Mrs Maxwell later saw her outside the Brittania at 9. 00 talking to a man, so a death date of 9 am is not feisible even if you believe the woman was Mary Kelly'
I don't think she was, but what we have from Mrs Maxwell is a woman who had been on a bender for several days, feeling rough and throwing up at 8 30. Later same woman spotted outside pub at 9.00 talking to man. Chances are she went into Britannia [hair of the dog] with man.
So according to Maxwell thesis MK HAS HAVE EATEN AND DIGESTED fish dinner after 9.am and before 10 45 am. AT some point return to room with man get murdered and chopped up in broad daylight with nobody noticing her and man returning to her room. Unbloodstained unknown man casually leaving her room before Bowyer arrives and no one noticing him. The body would be practically fresh. Sorry I don't buy it, its not probable.
Miss Marple

[Rubyretro]

Note the subject of that dream, and the cry of 'Oh Murder', which fits rather well I suggest.

It reminds me of the murder of Caroline Dickinson, murdered in the village of Pleine Fougéres, Brittany, in 1996..she was a child sleeping in a youth hostel full of other children on a school trip when she was strangled and raped : the muffled noises she made were put down to 'bad dream' by the others in the same room !

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rubyretro,
That was a tragic case,... of course it is entirely possible that Mrs Praters interpretations at the inquest, was actually Kelly being overcome.
However the dream that Kelly had, which apparently frightened her, happened after the double event, but prior to November 9th, and the point I am suggesting is that a reoccurence of that dream of ''murder' could have reared its head that morning , especially as she was lacking in sleepovers, and if she had a gent, bedding down in her room, her imagination , fueled by fear and alcohol, night have sparked a similar dream.
Not Impossible guys...
The point is,.. there is an explanation for the cry heard, and that explanation has been somewhat confirmed by a different source at a later date, by a resident of Millers court, who knew her.... as well as Prater. ie Lottie.
Rather like Abberline, I find Maxwells account acceptable.
Regards Richard.

[Abby Normal]

burnt clothes in the fireplace indicates killer must have been in Mary Kelly's room many hours before 9:00 am.

maxwell saw someone else.

[richardnunweek]

Hi
If Maxwell saw 'someone else' why did she attend the inquest?
She must have satisfied the police that the description she gave of Kelly , was accurate, which included clothing.
By all accounts Mjk had a distinctive appearance , her hair for eg.
She gave her statement on the Friday[9th], and she had the whole weekend to realise a mistake on her part, but did not .
I have no doubt that she saw Mary Kelly, and the police verified that it was not a mistake of date.
The burnt clothing.
How long does a bonnet take to burn ,or boys shirts?
I am of the opinion we assume to much about T.O.D.
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

Hi Richard
Losing battle i'm afraid.
I try to weight the witness statements with surroundings and situation.
By this i mean Lighting,known to witness,calmness,willingness to testify.
Caroline Maxwell will come out comfortably on top of any other eye witness in the whole series of murders.
You and I both believe this(yes with different conclusions) but for most people it's dismissed simply because it's awkward.'If you don't like something,bury your head in the sand and just hope it goes away' appears to have been the common opinion for many years and i don't think that'll change any time soon
All the best

[The Good Michael]

PS,

I believe it's possible. From what I'm understanding of rigor mortis, Kelly could have been killed at 9:00 or so. I don't know how that changes anything, however. The initial reports stated the onset of rigor mortis which could be (depending on where you look) 2-4 hours. At the time of examination (2pm),
rigor mortis had already set in, but was continuing during the examination. Rigor mortis begins in 2-4 hours and continues for another 6 hours. If Kelly had been killed at 3:00; rigor mortis would have been complete before Bond began the autopsy. This is not a hard science because things such as cold affect the process, and because individuals vary. I think a anywhere from 4:30-9:30 is a good window of time for Kelly to have been killed.

Mike

Mike