Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram?

[etenguy]

Only another 35-plus stabs, most of them to the upper body, and we might have a case for comparison with Tabram. As it is, the resemblance is tenuous at best.

If the similarities really were only tenuous at best, Martha Tabram's murder would not have been the more difficult of the Whitechapel murders to discount from the Ripper canon. There are a number of potential explanations for the move on from stabbing to cutting. Clearly you do not find these compelling. On their own, they may not be, but when added with all the other similarities to the canon ripper murders (I won't list all of them again), a strong link exists.

Many, if not most, cuts require the blade to puncture the skin, but that doesn't make them stabs. Stabs just puncture the skin and come perpendicularly back out, which is what happened to Tabram, unequivocally, 39 times over.

Indeed, and only one cut in the groin area in the case of Martha Tabram.

[Abby Normal]

Don't really think the raised skirts can be considered a definite signature element. Surely any woman killed under these circumstances is going to be in a state of dishevelment.

Well it’s indicative of sig as it shows a desire to expose the area of focus.
And even throwing SIG out altogether it’s a similarity, and a quirky one at that, with the other ripper victims.

[Sam Flynn]

Don't really think the raised skirts can be considered a definite signature element. Surely any woman killed under these circumstances is going to be in a state of dishevelment.

Indeed, Harry.

[Harry D]

Don't really think the raised skirts can be considered a definite signature element. Surely any woman killed under these circumstances is going to be in a state of dishevelment.

[Abby Normal]

I don't see much evidence of the Ripper's signature in that, with Tabram, there were multiple - indeed, umpteen - stabs, but no cuts. Furthermore, most of those stabs were aimed at the stomach, chest and neck, with her lower abdomen comparatively unscathed.

As to skirts, she was a prostitute who had presumably been serving her client, so her skirt could well have been lifted with that purpose in mind. This may have been the case with some of the Canonical victims, but it's arguably more likely that their skirts were lifted to facilitate the long cuts to their lower abdomens, the evisceration and removal of organs - neither of which remotely featured in Tabram's murder.

If there are signatures here, they're very, very different ones.

Hi Sam
Yes there really isn’t the same sig, I agree. The only possible comparison would be overkill vis knife perhaps.

However, that being said, if she was his first kill, he may have still been working out what was his true intention would be (sig) and how best to go about it (mo).however, she did have some stabs to the privates, so perhaps early sign of interest in that area.
But I totally see what your saying, on the surface it does apear different.

[Fisherman]

Only another 35-plus stabs, most of them to the upper body, and we might have a case for comparison with Tabram. As it is, the resemblance is tenuous at best.
Many, if not most, cuts require the blade to puncture the skin, but that doesn't make them stabs. Stabs just puncture the skin and come perpendicularly back out, which is what happened to Tabram, unequivocally, 39 times over.

The knife that caused the many small wounds will have been a small knife, possibly with a small handle and a shortish blade.
That kind of knife lends itself poorly to making the kind of cuts that were made to the victims from Polly Nichols and onwards.

Maybe that is the easy explanation. Maybe the killer wanted to get at the inside of Tabram, but settled for doing so by means of stabs only, since the knife did not lend itself to cutting and opening the abdomen.

One may of course argue that a larger dagger was also used, but A/ we don´t know if the same man used both weapons, and B/ if it was just the one man, he may not have fixed his intentions other than to a low level; knife-abdomen-get into. Equally, C/ the sternum weapon can have been rather a blunt and sturdy blade, unsuited for amateur surgery too.

If the killer had had a long, razorsharp, narrow and more flexible blade à la the Chapman weapon, then maybe Tabram would have lost an organ or two. There is no knowing.

I think the geographical location, Tabrams prostitution, the silence of the deed, the raised skirt, the clenched hands of Tabram and the overall timing mean that the Ripper must be a hot lead in the case.

[Sam Flynn]

Catherine Eddowes was stabbed in the groin as was Nichols according to Spratling.

Only another 35-plus stabs, most of them to the upper body, and we might have a case for comparison with Tabram. As it is, the resemblance is tenuous at best.

In Nichols' case some of the cuts may have started as stabs, then dragging the blade down.

Many, if not most, cuts require the blade to puncture the skin, but that doesn't make them stabs. Stabs just puncture the skin and come perpendicularly back out, which is what happened to Tabram, unequivocally, 39 times over.

[Hunter]

I get the distinct impression that Tabram's killer "enjoyed" stabbing her, somehow. Given the sheer number of stabs, he must have been on some kind of a high as he did it, and/or in the aftermath. I can't quite imagine someone coming down from that to being satisfied with a few cuts (however severe) and NO stabs to speak of.

Catherine Eddowes was stabbed in the groin as was Nichols according to Spratling. In Nichols' case some of the cuts may have started as stabs, then dragging the blade down.

With the exception of Elizabeth Stride, all of the victims from Smith to McKenzie suffered trauma to the genital area. Considering the unprecedented nature of this has to be significant along with the fact that not a single individual was ever apprehended for even one atrocity.

[Sam Flynn]

While I am still open on Tabram, you make good points, particularly the signature raised skirts.

I don't see much evidence of the Ripper's signature in that, with Tabram, there were multiple - indeed, umpteen - stabs, but no cuts. Furthermore, most of those stabs were aimed at the stomach, chest and neck, with her lower abdomen comparatively unscathed.

As to skirts, she was a prostitute who had presumably been serving her client, so her skirt could well have been lifted with that purpose in mind. This may have been the case with some of the Canonical victims, but it's arguably more likely that their skirts were lifted to facilitate the long cuts to their lower abdomens, the evisceration and removal of organs - neither of which remotely featured in Tabram's murder.

If there are signatures here, they're very, very different ones.

[Elamarna]

Hi eten
For me it all fits together that she was a ripper victim. An early botched attempt with a clasp/pen knife on mill wood who survived. The killer realizes he needs a bigger knife so next time brings it with him. In the heat of the moment attack on tab ram he uses the first smaller knife out of habit and then finishes her off with the larger knife.

However, this attack, though killing the victim was too sloppy and inefficient and not really what he wanted. So in thinking how to kill more quickly and quietly he devises another plan which he uses on his next victim.

Typical of serial killers early clumsy attempts which they refine as they progress to their mature MO.

And then you add in all the other factors-same victimolgy, same area, same time frame, the overkill,and the clincher for me-The victim found on her back with the skirt raised to expose the abdomen, like the others.

It all fits. She was killed by the ripper.

Abby

While I am still open on Tabram, you make good points, particularly the signature raised skirts.


Steve

[Abby Normal]

You may be right, or the frenzy of stabbing may have been the result of a growing dissatisfaction within him ending by killing her with a longer bladed knife out of frustration. Hence stabbing was not part of his on-going method.

The majority opinion agrees with you, hence Martha Tabram is not included in the canon. However, I am struck by all the other similarities and find it difficult to dismiss her as a potential ripper victim.

Hi eten
For me it all fits together that she was a ripper victim. An early botched attempt with a clasp/pen knife on mill wood who survived. The killer realizes he needs a bigger knife so next time brings it with him. In the heat of the moment attack on tab ram he uses the first smaller knife out of habit and then finishes her off with the larger knife.

However, this attack, though killing the victim was too sloppy and inefficient and not really what he wanted. So in thinking how to kill more quickly and quietly he devises another plan which he uses on his next victim.

Typical of serial killers early clumsy attempts which they refine as they progress to their mature MO.

And then you add in all the other factors-same victimolgy, same area, same time frame, the overkill,and the clincher for me-The victim found on her back with the skirt raised to expose the abdomen, like the others.

It all fits. She was killed by the ripper.

[Wickerman]

hi jon. looking at your photos of 1888 bayonets and clasp blades. with a dagger,both sides of the blade are sharpened. do you think one side of the clasp blade not being sharpened would have caused problems if trying to push it through the breastbone? or created a certain type of cut identifiable to a doctor?

Hello Robert.

Interestingly, Killeen made no mention of an attempt to stab her in the breastbone with the smaller weapon. So, the killer may have not considered it.
As for myself, I would think it was expecting too much to stab through the breastbone with a penknife, yet I know others have posted press reports describing killings which say a penknife was used in such a way.

Certainly, every type of blade offers a particular shape and depth of cut which can help to identify the weapon used, or at least eliminate the majority of potential weapons.
This was known to doctors of the time.

[etenguy]

I get the distinct impression that Tabram's killer "enjoyed" stabbing her, somehow. Given the sheer number of stabs, he must have been on some kind of a high as he did it, and/or in the aftermath. I can't quite imagine someone coming down from that to being satisfied with a few cuts (however severe) and NO stabs to speak of.

You may be right, or the frenzy of stabbing may have been the result of a growing dissatisfaction within him ending by killing her with a longer bladed knife out of frustration. Hence stabbing was not part of his on-going method.

The majority opinion agrees with you, hence Martha Tabram is not included in the canon. However, I am struck by all the other similarities and find it difficult to dismiss her as a potential ripper victim.

[Robert St Devil]

hi jon. looking at your photos of 1888 bayonets and clasp blades. with a dagger,both sides of the blade are sharpened. do you think one side of the clasp blade not being sharpened would have caused problems if trying to push it through the breastbone? or created a certain type of cut identifiable to a doctor?

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
The overkill stabbing, could be the result of a female killer [ at least with Tabram] was Pearly poll questioned?
Regards Richard.