12:45 am

[Abby Normal]

That's actually an interesting argument. However, it doesn't explain how the cachous survived the struggle in the street, i e. weren't dropped, or why Stride didn't instinctively draw both hands towards her throat, thus dropping the cachous.

It also doesn't explain how they survived the initial struggle, i.e. how Stride managed to hang on to them whilst being pulled towards the street, spun round, and thrown on to the footway, at which point she would surely have thrown out her hands and spread her fingers in order to break the fall.

She simply held on to them. As I've mentioned a thousand times, it's common knowledge now people are found dead still clutching objects in their hands, even while having gone through extremely violent situations.
It's a red herring and this is the last time I'm wasting bandwidth on the stupid cashoo.

[Observer]

in one of my favored scenarios he cuts her throat out in the street, which may help explain why she didn't yell loudly, he flees, her hand goes to her cut throat(blood on her hand) as she stumbles toward the sounds of singing(perceived safety/help) into the yard and expires there.

There was no blood evidence out on the street. A trail of blood ran from Stride's neck down to the gutter, that was it. Consequently your "favoured" scenario is a non starter.

[Abby Normal]

There was no blood evidence out on the street. A trail of blood ran from Stride's neck down to the gutter, that was it. Consequently your "favoured" scenario is a non starter.

It was wet that night which may have obscured any blood on the ground,her hand had blood on it which indicates she may stemmed the flow of blood that way by covering the wound with her hand and her scarf was also pulled tight which also may have stemmed blood.

And yes blood ran down her neck into the gutter which could have continued to flow after she lay dying and or dead in the yard.

So much for your non starter

[Observer]

It was wet that night which may have obscured any blood on the ground,her hand had blood on it which indicates she may stemmed the flow of blood that way by covering the wound with her hand and her scarf was also pulled tight which also may have stemmed blood.

And yes blood ran down her neck into the gutter which could have continued to flow after she lay dying and or dead in the yard.

So much for your non starter

Yeah, dream on. Fact, if she had been cut out on the street then there would have been some evidence of blood spatter, despite the pavement being wet, despite her efforts to stem the flow, and despite the fact that her scarf had been pulled tight.

[Observer]

The blood pattern, as observed at the scene of her murder, is entirely consistent with her being murdered just inside the gate which is where she was found.

[John G]

She simply held on to them. As I've mentioned a thousand times, it's common knowledge now people are found dead still clutching objects in their hands, even while having gone through extremely violent situations.
It's a red herring and this is the last time I'm wasting bandwidth on the stupid cashoo.

What you're referring, in respect of people holding on to things, is as a consequence of cadavaric spasm, but that only happens after your dead. However, Stride seemed very much alive during the assault witnessed by Schwartz so that argument doesn't apply.

And, as I've noted before, it's not realistic to argue the cachous would have survived the assault described by Schwartz, or Stride being subsequently dragged into the Yard by BS man, because there's no way she was going to enter that Pitch black abyss with someone who'd just assaulted her. Not with the Ripper scare in full swing.

Let's face it, the only way you can make Schwartz's evidence make sense is by resorting to extreme theories.

[c.d.]

"Let's face it, the only way you can make Schwartz's evidence make sense is by resorting to extreme theories."

Hello John,

I am going to disagree. I think it makes perfect sense if he was not describing a murder but simply a little street hassle.

c.d.

[GUT]

"Let's face it, the only way you can make Schwartz's evidence make sense is by resorting to extreme theories."

Hello John,

I am going to disagree. I think it makes perfect sense if he was not describing a murder but simply a little street hassle.

c.d.

And I've never seen any reason to see it as anything else.

[harry]

I agree with you c.d. The so called assault,may even have been initiated by Stride accosting BS man,and him,wishing to have nothing to do with her,w arding her off. Swarthz was behind BS man when the first contact was made,so not in an ideal position to witness the first moves.

[Varqm]

My 2 cents.

Depending on how sure Schwartz was about Lipski, and was telling the truth (no corroboration) I believe in the first one.
BS,drunk, man was trying to control/assault Stride.BS man said Lipski - threatening, not one in particular - at both Pipeman and Schwartz, passersby and both strangers to BS man - both didn't want to get involved and scurried off : or Lizzie at Stride - BS man did not care much about Pipeman and Schwartz's presence (I have seen this happen to couples a few times) but again both didn't want to get involved and scurried off .

Club conspiracy to distance themselves from the fault of murder is less believable than just trying to tell the simple truth if they did not commit it.I believe the club members were sensible enough.
They were just recollecting,in their statements,through best effort.
As has been said before witnesses,club members for ex.,are unreliable because they are thinking of something else when an incident occurs as opposed to preparing to notice something so one could observe the details/sequence.

[Abby Normal]

Actually what really happened is this.

Israel Schwartz was a member of the club. He came out of the club and stride was hanging about solicitating. What a stroke of luck for the ripper. While she was giving him a blow job, holding onto cashoo of course, he couldn't resist, and gently cut her throat, but quickly so she wouldn't drop the cashoo. Before he could mutilate her though his co clubber diemshitz came up and caught him red handed. So they quickly devised a scheme which would not only exonerate Schwartz but the club.

So Schwartz hurried home to await the police to find him so he could eventually tell him the bs man story.while diemshitz acted like he found the body. Schwartz was lying about bs man after all.

So much more interesting than the boring old truth. Plus the case is solved!! It was Schwartz all along.

Peace and I'm out of this nonsense thread.

[Jon Guy]

I'm not so sure, Jon. Mrs Long seems to have walked into Hanbury Street and saw him already talking with Annie, .

Hi Sam,
Mrs Long actually witnessed the man approach Chapman whilst she was passing them. (Evans and Rumbelow "Scotland Yard Investigates").

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Sam,
Mrs Long actually witnessed the man approach Chapman whilst she was passing them. (Evans and Rumbelow "Scotland Yard Investigates").

Most papers that report on the inquest have her saying she "saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement talking", or slight variations thereof. As far as I can tell, only the Daily News says she "saw a man come to a woman and stand and talk with her", however this is not recorded verbatim but paraphrased.
It may be correct, and all the other papers wrong, but since Long says she saw only the man's back, it seems she was behind him - the same as Schwartz and his man.

[Jon Guy]

Most papers that report on the inquest have her saying she "saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement talking", or slight variations thereof. As far as I can tell, only the Daily News says she "saw a man come to a woman and stand and talk with her", however this is not recorded verbatim but paraphrased.
It may be correct, and all the other papers wrong, but since Long says she saw only the man's back, it seems she was behind him - the same as Schwartz and his man.

It`s not that the other papers may be wrong, they just don`t have that extra bit of info.

I don`t have it to hand, but the newspaper source I refer to is in Evans and Rumbelow (Scotland Yard Investigates)

[Joshua Rogan]

Fair enough, Jon, I should probably have used "less complete" rather than "wrong".
But the salient point is that both Long and Schwartz approached the men they saw from behind, so there's no reason to suppose (unless there's more to the source you mention) that Long's man was any more aware he was being watched than Schwartz's man.