12:45 am

[Jon Guy]

But the salient point is that both Long and Schwartz approached the men they saw from behind, so there's no reason to suppose (unless there's more to the source you mention) that Long's man was any more aware he was being watched than Schwartz's man.

Mrs Long would have walked right past Chapman and her companion just as the man seems to be propositioning her. So he would have been aware of Mrs Long just after he had said will you. He could abort

Whereas, BS Man had already thrown Stride down at the point he notices Schwartz. Too late to abort.

[Michael W Richards]

I'd put it even lower. Fewer than 10 minutes would have been sufficient for the crude evisceration of Annie Chapman.

But Annies body temperature almost fooled the physicians Sam, she would have been warmer had she been found right after this cutting. And Phillips believed the cutting would have taken longer. I think using Cadosche as the start time makes the most sense in that regard.

[Michael W Richards]

Mrs Long would have walked right past Chapman and her companion just as the man seems to be propositioning her. So he would have been aware of Mrs Long just after he had said will you. He could abort

Whereas, BS Man had already thrown Stride down at the point he notices Schwartz. Too late to abort.

I appreciate that long held beliefs are hard to abandon, but again, for the umpteenth time, IF Cadosche was lying, then maybe Mrs Long saw Annie. If not, she didn't. Any evidence he was lying?

[Sam Flynn]

But Annies body temperature almost fooled the physicians Sam, she would have been warmer had she been found right after this cutting. And Phillips believed the cutting would have taken longer.

I disagree with Phillips, who seems to have been thinking in terms of a surgical procedure, not a rip'n'slash raid on a woman's abdomen. In all seriousness, if that carnage took 10 minutes max I'd be amazed.

I think using Cadosche as the start time makes the most sense in that regard.

I certainly think that using Cadoche as the benchmark makes a lot of sense, although I don't know quite how precise his time-keeping would have been, given the era we're talking about. Personally, I don't feel that the discrepancy between his and Elizabeth Long's (estimated) timings is too much of an issue.

[Joshua Rogan]

I disagree with Phillips, who seems to have been thinking in terms of a surgical procedure, not a rip'n'slash raid on a woman's abdomen. In all seriousness, if that carnage took 10 minutes max I'd be amazed.

I tend to agree, but Phillips gave two times at inquest;

"The Coroner: Can you give any idea how long it would take to perform the incisions found on the body?
Dr. Phillips: I think I can guide you by saying that I myself could not have performed all the injuries I saw on that woman, and effect them, even without a struggle, under a quarter of an hour. If I had done it in a deliberate way, such as would fall to the duties of a surgeon, it would probably have taken me the best part of an hour. The whole inference seems to me that the operation was performed to enable the perpetrator to obtain possession of these parts of the body."

We know that the wounds inflicted on Eddowes probably took less than 10 minutes, Dr Browne I think stated it could have been done in as little as 5 minutes. So even Phillips' shorter time seems somewhat cautious.

I certainly think that using Cadoche as the benchmark makes a lot of sense, although I don't know quite how precise his time-keeping would have been, given the era we're talking about. Personally, I don't feel that the discrepancy between his and Elizabeth Long's (estimated) timings is too much of an issue.

Cadosch said he noticed the time was 05:32 when he walked past Spitalfields church on his way to work, which is pretty precise. It's about 2-3 minutes walk from his door so he would have left just about when Long said she had her sighting.

[Sam Flynn]

Cadosch said he noticed the time was 05:32 when he walked past Spitalfields church on his way to work, which is pretty precise.

True story: I checked my watch this morning, whilst waiting for the coffee shop to open. I couldn't honestly tell you precisely what time it was but, if pressed, I might say it was 07:15, but I'm not actually recalling a fact, only making an informed guess; it might have been 07:10 or 07:25. My only reason for checking the time was to gauge roughly how long I'd have to wait for my caffeine shot; I had no reason to register the time with any accuracy.

In similar vein, Cadoche presumably needed to check if he was roughly on track for work, but that would scarcely have warranted his registering such a specific time, still less to have recalled it with such precision when asked about it later. Seen in that light, how much confidence should we have?

[Abby Normal]

True story: I checked my watch this morning, whilst waiting for the coffee shop to open. I couldn't honestly tell you precisely what time it was but, if pressed, I might say it was 07:15, but I'm not actually recalling a fact, only making an informed guess; it might have been 07:10 or 07:25. My only reason for checking the time was to gauge roughly how long I'd have to wait for my caffeine shot; I had no reason to register the time with any accuracy.

In similar vein, Cadoche presumably needed to check if he was roughly on track for work, but that would scarcely have warranted his registering such a specific time, still less to have recalled it with such precision when asked about it later. Seen in that light, how much confidence should we have?

so true
I put little stock in witnesses timings in terms of ruling them in or out as valid witnesses, what they saw/heard etc., or whatever people try to use it for these days.

Ive always gone by that as long as nothing else major questions their credibility, then their times, no matter how precise they tried to be, should be taken as approximate, and one cant really try to rule them out, or try to make conclusive statements based on times.

[Jon Guy]

I appreciate that long held beliefs are hard to abandon, but again, for the umpteenth time, IF Cadosche was lying, then maybe Mrs Long saw Annie. If not, she didn't. Any evidence he was lying?

They are not my long held beliefs, Michael.
But anyway, how about Mrs Long was mistaken ?

Evans and Rumbelow argue that if Mrs Long left her house just after 5am, as she said, she would have been by 29 Hanbury Street at 5.15.
By 5.30am she would have been well on her way to Romford.

[Joshua Rogan]

They are not my long held beliefs, Michael.
But anyway, how about Mrs Long was mistaken ?

Evans and Rumbelow argue that if Mrs Long left her house just after 5am, as she said, she would have been by 29 Hanbury Street at 5.15.
By 5.30am she would have been well on her way to Romford.

Romford? I thought she was on her way to Spitalfields Market. She said she reached it "a few minutes after half past five", which chimes with hearing the brewery clock sounding the half-hour as she turned into Hanbury street.
Even if she left home just after five, there's no guarantee she didn't stop off somewhere on the way for an errand, a coffee and/or a natter. Sadly.

[Jon Guy]

Romford? I thought she was on her way to Spitalfields Market. She said she reached it "a few minutes after half past five", which chimes with hearing the brewery clock sounding the half-hour as she turned into Hanbury street.
Even if she left home just after five, there's no guarantee she didn't stop off somewhere on the way for an errand, a coffee and/or a natter. Sadly.

I was joking about, Romford, JR.
My point being that in half an hour she could have covered 2 miles, which places her well past Hanbury Street and Spitalfields Market.
If, as she says,she left her house just after 5am, then 5.15 she would be near Hanbury Street (chiming with Cadosche).

As Evans and Rumbelow argue, Mrs Long could be our best witness.
She saw Chapman at close quarters, and in daylight.

[Abby Normal]

I was joking about, Romford, JR.
My point being that in half an hour she could have covered 2 miles, which places her well past Hanbury Street and Spitalfields Market.
If, as she says,she left her house just after 5am, then 5.15 she would be near Hanbury Street (chiming with Cadosche).

As Evans and Rumbelow argue, Mrs Long could be our best witness.
She saw Chapman at close quarters, and in daylight.

that's what ive often thought-she heard the 5:15 chime, or if not just misremembered. and I agree-shes one of the best witnesses, but as all things ripper- not a great witness in general.

[Joshua Rogan]

I was joking about, Romford, JR.

I thought you might have been, JG! Alas, it's not easy to tell someone's exact meaning from their written words.

My point being that in half an hour she could have covered 2 miles, which places her well past Hanbury Street and Spitalfields Market.
If, as she says,she left her house just after 5am, then 5.15 she would be near Hanbury Street (chiming with Cadosche).

True enough. But without knowing her walking speed, route, itinerary or even starting point, we can't know for sure. Frustratingly.

As Evans and Rumbelow argue, Mrs Long could be our best witness.
She saw Chapman at close quarters, and in daylight.

She certainly seemed definite.
"[Coroner] You are certain about the time? - Quite."

[Jon Guy]

I thought you might have been, JG! Alas, it's not easy to tell someone's exact meaning from their written words.

I work on the assumption that everyone thinks my posts are a joke ;-)

True enough. But without knowing her walking speed, route, itinerary or even starting point, we can't know for sure. Frustratingly.

We can only speculate, and to be honest, I don`t think we`re even 100% on where Mrs Long was living at the time, as her address differs in the different sources.

She certainly seemed definite.
"[Coroner] You are certain about the time? - Quite."

True, perhaps the Brewery clock was not on time.
It only takes it to be 10 mins out ....

[Joshua Rogan]

I work on the assumption that everyone thinks my posts are a joke ;-)

I shall bear that in mind for future posts.

We can only speculate, and to be honest, I don`t think we`re even 100% on where Mrs Long was living at the time, as her address differs in the different sources.

Quite....I did start a thread some time ago hoping to establish exactly where she lived, but I don't think it led to anything definite.

True, perhaps the Brewery clock was not on time.
It only takes it to be 10 mins out ....

So many variables to consider....
You'd think, with the licensing laws in place, a brewery would have wanted to be spot on with the time to avoid any chance of prosecution....although that would probably apply more to the pubs themselves rather than the supplier.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I believe Robert that there are extenuating circumstances here that very well could solve an important question, why was she there. Its not popular, but I believe its at least possible that Liz was there to clean up after the meeting. I think it may have been a gig for her.

She says she has been gainfully employed the past months cleaning "among the Jews", and here we have a Jewish Socialist club in need of cleaning. I don't see it as farfetched.

From what I read "cleaning among the Jews" meant doing chores for Jewish families who observed the sabbath. So it would give some work, but only once a week, in places like the Rothschild housing complex, or Wentworth Model Housing.