12:45 am

[Abby Normal]

Hi Gareth

It was most certainly Lipski that was shouted by BS Man, as it was at that point that BS Man realised Schwartz, a Jewish looking guy, was watching him.

yup. as what abberline thought.

[Sam Flynn]

But think about giving someone the finger. You look directly at them and accompany the gesture with a curse word. Schwartz seemed to be saying that whatever the word was it was aimed at him.

True, CD, but Schwarz's evidence comes to us reflected through different prisms which, even at first hand, evidently needed an interpreter. The potential for confusion is rather high, so what Schwarz seemed to have said, and what he actually said, cannot be ascertained precisely.

Having said that, I'm not too hung up on the "Lizzie!" idea, interesting though it is. Even without it, what Schwarz reports has all the flavour of a violent quarrel between two (possibly acquainted) parties, as opposed to anything more exotic.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Been seen doing what? According to Schwartz it was simply pushing a woman to the ground. So why go on to kill her after being seen?

c.d.

hi CD
Because he was pissed off and lost his temper. Ive always thought that Schwartz may have actually witnessed the throat cutting but didn't realize it-when he saw BS mans hands go up to her shoulder area. Or it could have happened shortly after he fled.

[Joshua Rogan]

Doesn't that equate to 12:46-12:50 Josh?

Not exactly....your phrasing makes it sound like Blackwell was saying the murder definitely occurred between those times, whereas my reading has that window as the very earliest it could have happened but was more likely to have been later. I.e. It was more likely to have happened closer to Louis' time than Isaac's.

Having said that, some papers do indeed suggest he said that she had been dead "from 20 minutes to half an hour" when he arrived, so I can see your point.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi CD

Church Pasage Man still went on to kill Eddowes after been seen by 3 men, and Annie Chapman`s killer still went on to kill Chapman despite Mrs Long witnessing him approaching a victim.

IF Cadosche is to be believed, and I see no reason why he shouldnt be, then Mrs Long simply made a misidentification.

[Michael W Richards]

Re Fanny Mortimer: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual."

Notice the "NEARLY THE WHOLE TIME" in her statement. She had a sick husband and I believe it was five children to deal with. So clearly she was not at her door THE WHOLE TIME.

c.d.

There has never been any issue with accepting that Fanny was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 1am, nor is there any need to question whether she was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1. She stated in both cases that was her position. We have corroboration of that with her seeing the young couple at some point, and between 12:55 and 1, with her sighting of Goldstein.

Now, contextually, what do you envision she meant by "nearly the whole time"? I think its clear that she wasn't at the door continuously, but also that she was at her door a large portion of that 30 minutes and also that she heard things from the street when she wasn't at the door. The boots, the cart. She saw only a deserted street save for a young couple during the intervals she was at her door, and she never saw or heard anything of Israel, Pipeman, or BSM. Neither did she see or hear Louis arrive while at her door, as he insisted, at promptly 1am.

So this is the story is it....3 people arrive and depart unseen, 2 engaged in a scuffle and with a yell to someone else across the street, 1 man pulls up unseen or heard at precisely 1am, all while Fanny is at her door the majority of the 30 minute period in question. This all happens just after someone else unseen somehow slips into the picture and cuts Liz, decides the empty street is too risky and forgoes any further actions, then slips away unseen and unheard by all, including Fanny or the invisible cart driver just coming up to the gates.

Now I see why you've stayed interested all this time, reads like a interesting fiction. The silent invisible threats.

[Michael W Richards]

In his press interview from the 1st he says "She could not have been dead more than twenty minutes, the body being perfectly warm".
At the inquest he hedged his bets and stretched it a little.
"I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, at the most half an hour. "

Doesn't that equate to 12:46-12:50 Josh?

[Michael W Richards]

This is a most unfortunate post for it contains no merit. One: Mortimer wasn't at her door for the whole period. Two: has I've explained to you Spooner says he arrived at the scene 5 minutes before PC Lamb, who arrived 10-12 minutes before Dr Blackwell, who arrived at 1:16. This means PC Lamb arrived at around 1:05, and Spooned at about 1:00am. This has already been explained to you. Forget Spooner's estimate, it was clearly wrong, he didn't consult a watch/clock but relied on the pub closing times! Three: PC Smith must have been wrong with his time estimate. Not could have been; must have been. Please read and digest post 105: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9642&page=11

In an effort to be the one who is correct I can see why you disregard statements made.

[Jon Guy]

Been seen doing what? According to Schwartz it was simply pushing a woman to the ground. So why go on to kill her after being seen?

Hi CD

Church Pasage Man still went on to kill Eddowes after been seen by 3 men, and Annie Chapman`s killer still went on to kill Chapman despite Mrs Long witnessing him approaching a victim.

[Jon Guy]

Agreed. If so, it would be consistent with a "You're coming home with ME!" scenario, which would be consistent with Stride and the attacker being acquainted, which in turn would be consistent with his crying out, not "Lipski!", but "Lizzie!" - as others have suggested in the past.

Hi Gareth

It was most certainly Lipski that was shouted by BS Man, as it was at that point that BS Man realised Schwartz, a Jewish looking guy, was watching him.

[John G]

Re Fanny Mortimer: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual."

Notice the "NEARLY THE WHOLE TIME" in her statement. She had a sick husband and I believe it was five children to deal with. So clearly she was not at her door THE WHOLE TIME.

c.d.

There are two different versions of Mortimer's account. In one version she says she went outside shortly after hearing the "heavy stamp" of a policeman pass by-I believe this would have been around 12:42-12:43, meaning she arrived at her doorstep at about 12:45. She then stood at her door for no more than 10 minutes before returning inside. About 4 minutes later she heard Louis' pony and cart.

[Tom_Wescott]

SMH at Sam Flynn and Mike Richards.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Joshua Rogan]

Schwartz seemed to be saying that whatever the word was it was aimed at him.

Sorry c.d. I don't think Schwartz believed the shout was directed toward him.
A Home office letter enquiring about the progress of the investigation contains this about his statement;

"A statement has been made by a man named Schwartz to the effect that he had heard a person who was pulling about a woman identified as Elizabeth Stride 15 minutes before the murder off Berner Street took place, call out "Lipski" to an individual who was on the opposite side of the road. It does not appear whether the man used the word "Lipski" as a mere ejaculation meaning in mockery I am going to "Lipski" the woman, or whether he was calling to a man across the road by his proper name."

A report by Abberline seems to be a reply to this and says;

"I beg to report that since a Jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the Jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong Jewish appearance I am of opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.
I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to whom the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say."

[c.d.]

because the ripper was human and not a robot. lost his temper it seems, probably because she would not go gently into that secluded area. and yes fled once he realized he had been seen and or realized the situation was too hot.

Hello Abby,

Been seen doing what? According to Schwartz it was simply pushing a woman to the ground. So why go on to kill her after being seen?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Re Fanny Mortimer: "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual."

Notice the "NEARLY THE WHOLE TIME" in her statement. She had a sick husband and I believe it was five children to deal with. So clearly she was not at her door THE WHOLE TIME.

c.d.